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Evil and Me
Gregory Benford |
It all started with experience, as most philosophical positions should. What’s an idea worth if it cannot withstand the rub of the real?
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Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 11/22 at 04:28 PM
I appreciate Mr. Benford's thoughtful words.
"The Bible is full of godly interventions, though, mostly to shield the Jews or murder their enemies. But—why has that stopped in the face of endless persecution, pogroms, and the Nazi Holocaust?"
It's a good question, but the force is somewhat diminished by the fact that the Bible itself provides an answer to this question, right there near the end of Leviticus and again near the end of Deuteronomy. Disagree with the answer if you wish, but it's answer is in there.
"Every religion with an afterlife theory has something that survives death or is resurrected—and that gets interpreted as the essence of what it means to be human. Often the strength of faith seems shaky, so you believe you must have the One True Religion to which others must convert or go to hell."
This paragraph is potentially misleading, if one connects the two sentences. It is not the case that every religion teaches that 'you must have the One True Religion to which others must convert or go to hell.' And I'm speaking /specifically/ of one religion in particular that /does/ have an afterlife theory.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 11/24 at 08:43 AM
"So I now believe that evil isn’t a problem to be solved."
This sentence could be taken completely the wrong way, especially when looked at out of context. Surely it is meant in the restricted Problem of Evil sense, and the author would want to leave the world a better place and thwart nasty people if possible just as much as I do.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 11/24 at 09:54 AM
Abraham, would you please quote the sections of Leviticus and Deuteronomy that answer the question of why godly interventions have stopped?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 11/24 at 12:28 PM
Lev 26 and Deut 28
Perhaps it doesn't answer the question "why godly interventions have stopped" but why such tragedies like why God might let a holocaust happen.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 11/24 at 01:05 PM
Mr. Benford speaks from his heart and like a lot of us who where brought up in at least a semi-religious family and culture, tried in good faith, to get his answers from religion, the bible and God.
Alas, his search for answers was doomed from the beginning, as religion, the Bible and God do not have any answers, just raise more questions.
It is unfortunate that it has taken him so long to come to grips and accept his Atheism, but this speaks to the true insidious impact of religion on society. Those who take comfort in the arms of religion have consciously turned their brains off, and those of us who follow Adam's path of wanting to eat from the tree of knowledge are told we are sinners for questioning at all. The pursuit of knowledge is one of the most noblest pursuits of all.
Richard Dawkins is quite right in saying childhood indoctrination into religion is a form of child abuse, and like other forms of abuse, the effects don't show up until later in life.
It's time we start holding religious leaders accountable.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 11/24 at 02:13 PM
Friendly Atheist writes: "Alas, his search for answers was doomed from the beginning, as religion, the Bible and God do not have any answers, just raise more questions."
To which questions do they not have any answers? I think some /truly/ friendly atheists would admit they have answers to /some/ things.
"and those of us who follow Adam's path of wanting to eat from the tree of knowledge are told we are sinners for questioning at all."
www.thefreedictionary.com/Overgeneralization
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 11/24 at 02:15 PM
Leviticus 26:
So God let the holocaust happen to innocent children because their parents didn't respect his wishes? What a dick.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 11/24 at 02:29 PM
Like I said, Tony, "Disagree with the answer if you wish but it's answer is in there." Actually, it would be better to disagree with an interpretation that wasn't as rash as yours.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 11/24 at 04:00 PM
No, Abraham, the bible supplies no answers. It supplies the immorality of xenophobia, slavery, murder, elitism, misogyny. Where it tries to answer real issues, it fails miserably.
The bible and the Koran are really disgusting documents that are poorly written.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 11/24 at 04:28 PM
Thanks for your unbiased input.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 11/24 at 04:45 PM
That's not really fair, Abraham. All of us, including yourself, approach these personal subjects with a certain bias. Mine happens to be toward rationality and humanism -- which are seldom, if ever, found in the Abrahamic scriptures.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 11/24 at 05:36 PM
Abraham writes: "Perhaps it doesn't answer the question "why godly interventions have stopped" but why such tragedies like why God might let a holocaust happen."
It might give a rationalisation, but ultimately if you follow that line the answer you're giving is that God is evil: allowing suffering on a massive scale for the pettiest, most selfish, most self-serving of reasons.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 11/24 at 06:22 PM
True, I'm biased. But I didn't even offer my opinion on the Bible. All I set out to do was to show that there was an answer in the Bible to the question that Mr. Benford implied wasn't in there. I really didn't want to get into any Biblical debates.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 11/24 at 08:19 PM
Thanks, dsainty, but you're just repeating what Tony said, only nicer.
(These last two comments of mine are out of order because dsainty's wasn't up yet when I wrote the first one.)
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 11/25 at 05:34 AM
The point that cannot be answered by your blind recourse to religion, is that the behaviour of your God in a human being would lead to a trial for war crimes, mass murder, slavery, etc.
What you are basically saying is that if these things are demanded or committed by God then they are morally OK because God did it.
You do not act in these ways, you would have been locked up or executed...clearly you are cherry picking which parts of the Bible can be followed based on a separate modern morality. I can't see where in the Bible there is a guide to which parts to take literally and which to take allegorically. So you follow the parts you are comfortable with, which hardly sounds like being faithful to the true word of your God.
No, sorry, I don't care how omniscient a being is, even if it exists, I would not kill a child for it, as was requested in the story about Jephthah. That's the one where in order to get Gods support for a tribal massacre, Jephthah ends up killing his own daughter to appease God. What exactly is this an allegory for, if you want to take it down that route?
And if The New Testament supersedes the Old, why does anyone have to bother with the Old testament. Did God have a change of heart and decide to be more humane?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 11/25 at 11:42 AM
"your blind recourse to religion"
You make it too easy for readers to stop reading the rest of your post after that blindly-stated claim.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 11/25 at 04:54 PM
Abraham,
Do you agree that "evil" is a fair description of the God depicted in the chapter and verse you reference?
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 11/26 at 05:04 AM
That suits me fine Abraham, as we both know that you can never change your mind about this, due to the nature of faith.
Any reasoned challenge to your beliefs will simply be taken as a "test of faith" and therefore reinforce your beliefs whether they are valid or not. that is why faith has its danger. The religious can never relinquish the core of it even if it means committing an atrocity or perpetrating a prejudice they can justify through whatever scripture supports their claim.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 11/27 at 04:36 PM
"That suits me fine Abraham, as we both know that you can never change your mind about this, due to the nature of faith. "
According to this, there is no such thing as an atheist who is an ex-Christian (or any other faith), or a Christian (or any other faith) who is an ex-atheist. Pardon me if I express my skepticism, UnapologeticSkeptic.
Posted by .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) on 11/27 at 04:42 PM
dsainty, I'm not interested in getting into a theological debate here, so I'll just agree with you. Yes, "evil" is a fair description of the God depicted in the chapter I reference, on the surface.
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