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Comment on this entry

Should California Secede from the United States?


Hank Pellissier


Transhumanity.net

October 18, 2012

“Yes (sort of),” says Chris Hables Gray, a “pragmatic anarchist feminist revolutionary” who works as a lecturer of Interdisciplinary Studies at the University of California, Santa Cruz and Cal State Monterey. He believes “devolution” of large nations into smaller regions will improve democratic decision-making.


...

Complete entry


COMMENTS



Posted by Titan721  on  10/18  at  07:20 AM

While I do agree with Dr. Gray on a lot, I do not see us overthrowing/getting rid of the money system in any fashion (We’ve been using coins and such since the earliest civilizations). Also, every state is still pretty dependent upon the Federal government for things like Road construction/repair money, Medicaid and Medicare money, things of that sort. So unless every state somehow could answer each of those and more, I don’t see any state seceding from the USA. And ignore Texas legislators saying they will do so. The last time Texas was independent, it’s considered the worst time in Texas history. I fail to understand this whole secessionist movement. No state can answer their own challenges about money without help from the Federal government in some fashion.





Posted by AldenJole  on  10/18  at  10:10 AM

If the US were to start dividing up, who would get all the nukes? Does each region keep all the nukes in its territory?





Posted by Intomorrow  on  10/18  at  11:17 PM

Ecotopia portrayed northern California seceding from the US along with Oregon and Washington; the deserts of S. Cal. were perceived in the book as differing greatly from the Pacific Northwest.





Posted by Tom_B  on  10/21  at  10:12 PM

I think a better plan would be to just slice off the irredeemable regions—the Pakistan-like backwaters—Texas, east through S. Carolina, plus Tennessee and Kentucky. As a resident of N. Carolina, it is clear we are far less advanced than California, but we’re about 50% civilized and redeemable. I’d say the same for Virginia. New England, Illinois, New York, Wisconsin—these are by and large good places.





Posted by dobermanmac  on  10/22  at  02:14 AM

Wow, this is incredibly idealistic and dangerous.  There is no other way to say this - there are many many people who have sworn an oath to defend the constitution of the United States of America.  Furthermore, it is unambiguous that Chris Hables Gray is an enemy of the USA, and it’s constitution.

It is very important (because I believe in civil speech) that I say that I am not making a threat of violence, but frankly I don’t see a way around it: there will be a civil war if such foolish talk becomes a threat to the national security of the United States of America.  It will be squashed ruthlessly and efficiently with overwhelming military force.  Gosh, I am not even a patriot nor particularly religious, but God bless America.

I and many many others would give our life rather than see a repeat of the US civil war.

“I hold that, in contemplation of universal law and of the Constitution, the Union of these States is perpetual. Perpetuity is implied, if not expressed, in the fundamental law of all national governments. It is safe to assert that no government proper ever had a provision in its organic law for its own termination.” (1st Inaugural Address, March 4, 1861)





Posted by Bob O'Connor  on  10/22  at  04:46 AM

If the people would participate it might have more democracy. But it might not get better economics. A study by two World Bank economists found that Africa would be far better today if it were one country. Democracy may not be the best type of government for a nation. China’s one-party system has done wonders for bringing people out of poverty hugely increasing educational opportunities. It has certainly been effective in the economics here.
Contrast this with the US where lobbyists of business and other groups controlling large number of legislators and put in place laws that are not to the benefit of the people. Look at Obama care. Obama wanted limits on malpractice awards against doctors and hospitals. The lawyers lobby stops that. He wanted the federal option. The insurance lobby stop that. Consequently the US pays more for medical care than any other country but our health delivery system is rated 39th in the world.
It seems to me that the ideas of Plato still have the best chance at making a happier society. America’s pursuit of money has not made it a happiest country in the world. Denmark has that honor according to the OECD. The US is 11th.
Let us first determine what we want from our society, money or happiness. Then let us figure the best way to achieve it.





Posted by Intomorrow  on  10/22  at  05:51 PM

“I hold that, in contemplation of universal law and of the Constitution, the Union of these States is perpetual. Perpetuity is implied, if not expressed, in the fundamental law of all national governments. It is safe to assert that no government proper ever had a provision in its organic law for its own termination.” (1st Inaugural Address, March 4, 1861)


That was 151 yrs. ago, things are different now; for starters the GOP is no longer the champion of the enslaved/quasi-enslaved.
Mr. Brin pointed out how America is not comparable to ancient Rome—or at least not to the Roman empire—yet IMO it may be comparable to the Soviet Union in some way or the British empire.. which was emulated at one time.
America was created by the Framers mainly for commerce, it was 1776- ‘89 and the age of Adam Smith was beginning. America does v. well at business however merely for instance it can’t work together even so much to give its K-12 students a better education—which for the ‘greatest country in the world’ is shameful; and IMO since America was primarily created for commerce such wont change, because then what it means to be America would be altered to something else, something unknown.
The Soviet Union tried to reform itself and dissolved because you cannot be a Communist nation and not be a Communist nation at one and the same time; a snake cannot be a centipede. Isaac Newton could not have been reincarnated as a one-celled organism and still remain Isaac Newton.
So how can America cease being predatory-yet-productive nation and still remain America?: it would have to be dissolved into smaller parts as the former Soviet Union was.





Posted by Intomorrow  on  09/24  at  08:05 AM

A comment I wrote replying to some blarney about Lincoln being comparable to a 21st century Republican:

“Just what elements of Lincoln’s vision is antithetical to conservatism?”

Lincoln was not a big believer in devolution. Today you are the ones who want to keep this giant, unworkable nation together. Do what Russia did—dissolve.
Have N. England-Mid Atlantic;
The South
Midwest;
Southwest;
Northwest,
as separate nations. Certainly better than what we have today. Guys, before you protest, you are conning yourselves immigration will be ‘reformed’ (whatever reformed now means); fooling yourselves govt will be substantially reduced. You will not reform our dire prison system either. Schools, welfare, wont be reformed
—what happens is sinecures are shifted around. That has een the case and no reason exists to think the situation will change in the future.
The positive is: conservtives can write glossy books on such topics to help make readers feel better. Red white and blue jacketed books with titles similar to ‘How I Would Reform Welfare If I Were the Gipper Come Back To Life’.





Posted by Peter Wicks  on  09/24  at  12:59 PM

Where did you write the comment, Intomorrow? I really want to check out the site to see what kind of reactions it received!





Posted by Intomorrow  on  09/25  at  03:15 AM

This is it; unfortunately the responses are nothing new- that is what these people are interested in: the status quo. Nevertheless they are no longer serious about reducing govt:

http://spectator.org/archives/2013/09/24/the-lincoln-blueprint





Posted by Peter Wicks  on  09/25  at  04:24 AM

What really strikes me is the following reaction to your observation (with regard to the collapse of the Soviet Union) that there was an attempted coup in Moscow: “Nonsense again. The Soviet Union broke up because it’s leaders agreed to break it up. That will never happen in our Republic.”

Are these people for real?





Posted by Intomorrow  on  09/25  at  07:42 AM

“Are these people for real?”

They want to retain as much of the status quo as possible in feeling secure- which can be comprehended. What doesn’t make sense is they say they want reduced govt yet their behavior now indicates they do not. Only thing coming to mind is they are ‘radical conservatives’, a species of contrarian.





Posted by Peter Wicks  on  09/25  at  08:17 AM

I guess I’m just curious to know what this guy actually thinks did happen in Russia. The Politburo sat down one fine morning and said, “You know, this whole Soviet Union thing isn’t quite working, is it? There’s this Yeltsin guy who’d make a great job of governing Russia, and the other republics, well who cares? Gorby’s been doing a fine job under trying circumstances, so let’s give him a nice retirement in a secure villa, and the rest of us can also go on holiday.”

Your nym over there is great, by the way. Third term for Obama indeed!





Posted by Intomorrow  on  09/25  at  08:31 AM

Doesn’t matter to the guy.. he wants to think in terms of black ‘n white, not grey. Vlad Frolov is correct Americans have a cartoonish view of the world, or say an idealised vision of a western film cowboy on a horse coming to save the day.
Look how asinine politics has become in Ca:

Vandals set fire to a life-sized bronze statue of President Ronald Reagan at a namesake sports park in California, blackening its colorful paint and damaging a memorial set up around it.
“It’s an insult to the president as well as to the community,”
The case has been turned over to arson investigators. Peters said the vandalism shows young people don’t appreciate “the greats in our history. I hope they find who it is and get him straightened out.”
The statue depicts the former president and California governor, painted in a yellow work shirt and blue jeans, holding a shovel in one hand and a cowboy hat in the other. The paint is now all blackened
.

A great deal of tawdry symbolism.

 





Posted by Peter Wicks  on  09/25  at  10:08 AM

But was it really ever less asinine? Vandals have been around since - well, the Vandals - and with them people who can’t find a better way to express their anger and fury than making asinine comments. Lord knows what the residents of Constantinople must have said about the Fourth Crusade.

Anyway, I hope they get the *statue* straightened out.





Posted by Intomorrow  on  09/25  at  12:04 PM

“But was it really ever less asinine?”

No, you are correct- it was not; the 21st century has merely replaced low tech asininity with high tech asininity.






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