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IEET > Rights > FreeThought > Contributors > Lawrence Krauss

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Does Religious Liberty Equal Freedom to Discriminate?


Lawrence Krauss
Lawrence Krauss
RichardDawkins.net

Posted: Jun 6, 2012

I happened to leave the country on the day that President Obama made his historic statement that he was in favor of same-sex marriage. I had expected his statement to ruffle feathers from those who found such partnerships difficult to reconcile with their religious beliefs, but I arrived back to find that the resulting outcry was completely counter-intuitive.

I had expected that some people might condemn him for a flawed morality. Instead, I found that the offensive was based on the argument that his defense of same-sex marriage represented an attack on religious liberty. Maybe it is just because when visiting other developed countries it is sometimes easy to forget how it is possible that religious discussion can permeate politics as deeply as it does in the US, but nevertheless it seemed unfathomable to me that the President’s statement that we should grant some additional rights to some individuals represented an attack on the liberty of others.

After all, his statement was about the right to marry, which is a secular legal issue. Even if the state were to recognize same-sex marriages, churches, mosques or synagogues or other places of worship would not be required to hold wedding ceremonies within them or sanction such marriages because no legal standing is attributed to such ceremonies or sanctions. Where is the attack on liberty?

Soon after that it turned out that many Catholic organizations raised an outcry when Katherine Sebelius, the Health and Human Services Secretary and a practicing Catholic, was invited to speak at the Georgetown University graduation ceremony. Many senior officials, including the Cardinal Archbishop of Washington wanted the invitation revoked simply because Sebelius fought to get insurance coverage for women using contraceptives. And this week, the Virginia House killed the appointment of a qualified judicial nominee… because he is gay!

All of these developments suggest that the banner of ‘religious liberty’ is effectively more akin to the ‘right to discriminate’. For the state to treat organized religious groups differently than it does other organizations implies special rights for these groups to behave differently than others. But this requires such religious groups to determine who is in the “in’ group, and who is in the ‘out’ group, and because religious doctrine guides moral behavior, it provides an opportunity for members of the group to condemn the behavior of those not in the group.

Recently the Institute I direct at Arizona State University brought together experts in psychology, neuroscience, anthropology, and primatology to examine the origins of xenophobia in modern human societies . Clearly there are deep biological causes for what is now a cognitive social phenomenon. At a cellular level it is obviously advantageous to be able to distinguish foreign organisms within the body. Our primate cousins often rely on rather violent assaults by groups on non-members who may wander into their territory as a way of asserting reproductive control. And some sociobiologists and evolutionary pyschologists have argued that group selection is an important force driving human evolution, and that ritual and religious ceremonies that build cohesion established an early advantage for tribal groups as they competed for resources.

Whatever the evolutionary basis of religion, the xenophobia it now generates is clearly maladaptive. In a democratic society, in principle governed by reason, denying the rights of human beings for whom biology differently directs the basic human drives of sexual attraction, or the rights of women or men to control their sexual behavior should not be identified with liberty. One might rationally argue that individual human beings should be free to choose what moral behavior they approve of, and which they don’t, subject to the constraints of the law. But when organized religious groups gain power of any form, power over the state, power over women, or power over children, the results inevitably lead to restrictions on liberty based on discrimination. Happily, the number of adults who claim some religious affiliation has been dropping in the United States at a steady rate, from 91% in 1948 to 77% in 2008, and most recently in the UK the number of adults surveyed claiming no such affiliation was as high as 50%.

It is thus possible to imagine a time when religious adults, and the institutions with which they are affiliated, will be in the minority. Until that time it is nevertheless incumbent upon us to recognize that it is inappropriate for religion to play any role in issues of state a modern democracy. Organized religion, wielding power over the community, is antithetical to the process of what modern democracy should define as liberty. The sooner we are without it, the better.


Special Thanks to RichardDawkins.net where the article was originally published HERE


Lawrence Maxwell Krauss is an American theoretical physicist who is Foundation Professor of the School of Earth and Space Exploration, and director of the Origins Project at Arizona State University. He is the author of several bestselling books, including The Physics of Star Trek and A Universe from Nothing.
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COMMENTS


This is an excerpt from an American Spectator article, ‘Gay Old Party’; the boilerplate has been deleted:

“Dick Cheney publicly endorsed gay marriage years ago. In January, Governor Christie appointed New Jersey’s first openly gay Supreme Court justice. Palin hinted that she supported repeal of ‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.’. Anne Coulter and Grover Norquist sit on the advisory board of GOProud, a gay conservative advocacy group.
There have been noteworthy developments at the state and federal levels. In March, a majority of New Hampshire Republican legislators joined Democrats to reject a bill that would have repealed a gay marriage law and replaced it with civil unions. And in 2011, New York legalized same-sex marriage with the decisive support of four Republican senators, marking the first time in the nation that a legislative body controlled by Republicans approved either same-sex marriage or civil unions. According to a recent Politico story, House Republicans have ‘quietly worked behind the scenes to kill amendments that reaffirm opposition to same-sex unions.’ Politico reporters interviewed House Republicans and found that gay issues ‘hardly register’ with them.
Politico describes the change as ‘one of the swiftest shifts in ideology and strategy for Republicans, as they’ve come nearly full circle on same-sex politics. What was once a front-and-center issue for rank-and-file Republicans—the subject of many hotly worded House and Senate floor speeches—is virtually a dead issue.’
The easy explanation is that economic concerns have momentarily eclipsed social issues. But many conservatives are simply not interested in issues related to homosexuality. As Rep. Allen West told Politico, ‘I want my daughters to have the opportunities that I had, and that’s what concerns me. That’s what keeps me up awake at night, not worrying about who’s sleeping with who.’ “





At first glance I can’t see much wrong with is article. In particular, Stefan has done very little to substantiate his claim that it is “politically naïve to the point of unreadability”. Claiming that the US is not a democracy is absurd (it is not ONLY a democracy, but it certainly IS a democracy, according to any commonly-used meaning of that word), and the author did not say that organised religion was antithetical to democracy per se, but rather to “what a modern democracy should define as liberty”. Not the most precise formulation I’ve ever come across, admittedly, but the author has a point in my view, and it’s a case that needs to be made.

Setting up straw men in order to knock them down is not a good way to debate, Stefan, particularly when there are annoying people like me around to point out that this is what you are doing.





I agree with Peter Wicks above. In my opinion, Stefan, you have another grudge against the article’s opinion and have manufactured this particular way to attack it.

I have requested permission to moderate because I don’t think you are very responsible with your commenting.





I find this article quite weak, but I agree with Peter that Stefan’s critique is also weak.

@Hank - if you wish to moderate posters who make poor arguments, please let me know, and I will send you some suggestions.

If, instead, you wish to moderate Stefan because you don’t like his overall position, please let me know, and I will also stop posting here.





Giulio - I work hard to cultivate positive relationships with respected writers, and Lawrence Krauss is one of them. In the past, I have had my very hard work to cultivate good relationships with writers destroyed by commenters who insulted the writer with their remarks.

I am not interested in repeating this - I am fine with Lawrence being critiqued in a respectful and intelligent way, but not in the way that Stefan has presented his viewpoint.

Plus, I have viewed Stefan’s comments before and I think he is prone to overstating his POV in a manner that can be perceived as rude. Which is what he did, in my opinion, in his comment here.





I agree with Lawrence’s thesis but not for the same reasons. Religions should not be allowed to discriminate on the basis of their religion outside of the hiring of religious leaders. (It would be difficult to rationally support forcing the Catholic Church to hire Imans has religious leaders for instance.) Outside of that one caveat they should be subject to the same scrutiny for bias as anyone else.

They absolutely should not be allowed to run rampant over the rights of people who do no subscribe to their beliefs. Part of the issue seems to be a misunderstanding of what freedom of religion and the separation of church and state means. From what little I know as a Canadian, it means that the state is free from being run by any one religion, but that individuals can and should choose whatever religion suits them best.

The implication of separation of church and state is that doctrine doesn’t belong in law. If we need to form our laws based on biblical principles, the state and church are not separate and we have a problem. If there is legislation that in any way impinges on a person’s rights to believe as they wish, then we have a problem.

Unfortunately the current crop of right-wing “religious” are creating problems in both ways and should be challenged at every turn. NOT on the religious value of their statements, but on the fact that they are in contradiction to human rights and the laws of their own land.





@Alex

I agree that one doesn’t need to go as far as Lawrence in opposing organised religion in order to make the case for non-discrimination. I think your argument is fine as far as it goes, and I guess there are fewer any IEET readers that would disagree with you. But his claim that organised religion, because of the power it wields over communities, and because of the way it tends to wield that power, is antithetical to what modern democracy should be about is worth taking seriously. I also think it goes to the (consequentialist) heart of the disagreements you and I have had on the issue over various threads. I still think you are underestimating the harm that even apparently benign religion does.





@Hank - if Stefan’s comment is rude, then some of the comments to my own articles are extremely rude and offensive.

But I am perfectly able to defend myself, and I would never ask you to censor comments to my articles. I am sure Lawrence is also perfectly able to defend himself.

If you want to censor Stefan’s comments, fine with me, but I will ask you to do the same with others.





@ Giulio - I don’t see all comments, you can let me know if some offend you - preferably on my personal email.

Some contributors are easily offended, others never read the comments, others have very thick skin. I don’t like to lose any of them. My job is to find good contributors and support them and get them to write good essays - it is wretched to me when I lose one.

My opinion is that comment quality indicates the behavior and intelligence of the website’s readership. Would I personally quit writing for a website if I thought the comments were too regularly rude and uninformed? Yes, I have done that. More than once.

Therefore, I am protective of my contributors so they are not afflicted with comments that are not well-thought out. Or are aggressively rude.





Stefan - you have every right to disagree with anyone’s comments, but you often do so in an insulting tone.

telling people who are highly-regarded in their fields that they are
“politically naïve to the point of unreadability” is disrespectful.

Telling me that my warning to you is “frankly laughable” is also disrespectful.

I have told you this before, but you are not either not understanding or you can’t express yourself in another way, I’m just not sure.





I really like this sentence, “Whatever the evolutionary basis of religion, the xenophobia it now generates is clearly maladaptive.”





hiyall, yes that is a really nice sentence. It shows very nicely the author’s biases in the article. The problem is that religion is not a terribly useful term aside from saying that this charity is religious and this is not.

The use of religious here about whether those charities that declare themselves religious should be allowed to commit broad, public discrimination. Under the right to free speech, anybody can say anything about a group of people. I am prepared to argue that there should be a limit on this right, but I’m Canadian and I’m used to hate speech laws.

The difficulty I have with this particular elegant sentence is that it lifts the argument out of the rights to free speech vs the responsibility to not be discriminatory and becomes discriminatory in itself. There is no such thing as “religion”. That is an abstract concept that we define in a number of ways depending on context and need. A great many people and organizations who fall under the religious umbrella are not xenophobic.  There are many religious people who absolutely accepting of where, who and how a person is at this moment, without judgement or condemnation. We just don’t hear much about them on the news. Just as we don’t hear about the millions of people who don’t commit murder, or theft, or assault and battery on their neighbours.

Unfortunately the good people are boring.

I would suggest a minor change to the sentence to make it more accurate and I don’t think any less telling.

“Whatever the evolutionary basis of religion, when it generates xenophobia it is clearly maladaptive.”

Any religion that has, as a primary statement of belief, that the “other” is evil and irredeemable without becoming like the “in” group of that particular religion, is false.





@Hank re “I am protective of my contributors so they are not afflicted with comments that are not well-thought out. Or are aggressively rude.”

Fair enough. Then, I will inform you of comments (by atheists) that are not well-thought out, and/or aggressively rude.





What is discouraging is the pettiness of spending even so much as one minute on fretting about gays when existential risks abound; don’t know what those risks are or the statistical probability of each risk alone and in combination, yet anti-gay, pro-‘life’, and all the rest of them are wedge issues. We are probably chumps for even discussing them—but such is how rope-a-dope works—as attractive intellectual snare to drag us in.
Sad part is those wedge issues can be continued for decades because the susceptible can be manipulated.





As always, Intomorrow makes an important point here. He overstates it in my view, but religion has indeed become something of a “wedge issue” and is arguably distracting us from much more important issues. Intomorrow mentions existential risks; we could also be discussing positive visions, such as Dick Pelletier’s recent timeline.

When these discussions an religion turn into pissing contests between theists and atheists, I generally take the side of the atheists, and one of the reasons for this is what I perceive is a dogged refusal of some of the defenders of religion here to recognise the amount of harm that religion, even in its most benign forms, can do, because of the extent to which it is riddled with false beliefs that become so critical to the religios identity that they remain unquestioned.

What the poll suggests (admittedly with a rather small sample size) is that religion is valued considerably more by certain of the regular commenters here than by the readership at large, and this seems to me to provide a legitimate reason for the editorial board to want to shift the tone of the debate towards a more explicitly atheist (or at least less explicitly theist or religious) position. From a personal perspective I would actually be interested in better understanding the thinking of people like Alex and Giulio and trying to come to a more common understanding on these issues, but perhaps this blog is not the best place to do so.





Reading Stefan’s comments, I do not find anything insulting. Since when has sharp criticism become insulting? It almost seems to me that someone wants to reestablish the crime of lesae maiestatis here.

Obviously - personal attacks, insults, and alike should not be tolerated. I understand also that Hank’s job is particularly delicate, given the wide variety of human different sensibilities. Someone might not tolerate well even mild criticism. I have a suggestion. If Hank knows of some contributor who does not like to read negative comments on his or her work, he can simply inhibit comments for that piece. The very same day, he can post under his own name an analogous piece, with similar contents - and let anyone express doubts and criticism.

I have posted many critical comments to a number of pieces. I have always considered honest criticism as a form of respect towards the author, and a very ethical attempt to deepen the discussion, in search for something recognizable as “truth”. I thought that - respectful, merciless criticism elevated the debate. Stefan criticism can be considered too shallow, too succinct, or plain wrong - but surely cannot be considered disrespectful for the author. Unless the linguistic expressions coming from respected authors are something sacred, and unquestionable.

Concluding, if I have to check authors’ credentials before daring to express radical criticism, probably I will stop posting altogether - and address my interest towards portals more inclined to tolerate blasphemy.

@Intomorrow
Well said.





@Peter re “religion has indeed become something of a “wedge issue” and is arguably distracting us from much more important issues.”

I partly agree, but then why do militant atheists keep obsessively dragging each and every discussion back to religion (examples in the recent Mao San thread and others)?

I have many other places where I can discuss religion, and I am perfectly happy to discuss other things here. If you guys want to discuss other things instead of religion, fine! Just stop dragging the discussion always back to religion.





@Giulio

To say that militant atheists keep obsessively dragging each and every discussion back to religion is basically to state a tautology: that’s what “militant” means! So your question is basically equivalent to “why are militant atheists militant”? To the extent that I am “militant” myself, I have stated my reasons.

Do you have anybsuggestions about where I could _usefully_ pursue our discussions about religion? I do think it’s an important issue, even if arguably less so than some of the other issues we discuss here.





@Peter re “say that militant atheists keep obsessively dragging each and every discussion back to religion is basically to state a tautology”

This is fair enough, but contradicts your previous point “religion has indeed become something of a “wedge issue” and is arguably distracting us from much more important issues.” If you want to focus on more important issues, then don’t drag every discussion back to religion! Your choice, but it is either one or the other.

“Do you have anybsuggestions about where I could _usefully_ pursue our discussions about religion?”

Welcome to http://turingchurch.com/ (blog, mailing list and FB group).





@ Andre -

there are indeed other “portals more inclined to tolerate blasphemy” -
perhaps they are more fun for commenters, I am not sure.
But I don’t believe they are more fun for writers.

I say that from personal experience, since I am a writer who has written for many sites, but I am only an occasional commenter.
I chose to write almost for IEET because I think the level
of commenting here is generally intelligent and polite and now that I’m editor I’d like to keep it that way, to attract more writers, who have many other sites they could write for, but I want them to choose IEET.

If you wish, you can be a writer at IEET so you can experience what it is like to be called “naive” “unreadable” “laughable” etc., after putting in long hours of thought and hard work, for free (on this site)

I am perhaps more thin-skinned than most writers, and I am protective of other writers who might have skins as thin as mine.





“What the poll suggests (admittedly with a rather small sample size) is that religion is valued considerably more by certain of the regular commenters here than by the readership at large..”

This is blatantly false, and this leading bias is at the root of problems and misconceptions here at IEET.


Another example..

Large Majority of IEET Readers are Atheists / Agnostics

“A recent survey revealed that 70.66% of IEET readers were either
atheist (59.88%) or agnostic (10.78%).”

http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/religionpollresults20120602

This is also obviously a false statement as 170 votes does not describe the Large Majority of readers at IEET - unless of course there are only 170 readers!!

“Reading Stefan’s comments, I do not find anything insulting. Since when has sharp criticism become insulting? It almost seems to me that someone wants to reestablish the crime of lesae maiestatis here.”

Exactly!

“I have a suggestion. If Hank knows of some contributor who does not like to read negative comments on his or her work, he can simply inhibit comments for that piece. The very same day, he can post under his own name an analogous piece, with similar contents - and let anyone express doubts and criticism.”

Indeed.. if there appears to be unsavoury comment or severe/rude critique, or rampant proselytizing, or lunatic theistic God fearing abuse, then the Moderator can simply apply a cordial warning towards the direction of comments/commentators - this has been more than sufficient in the past - but as noted earlier, bias leads here in one direction only?

We don’t live in an Orwellian society yet, and there should be no need to make such haste in progressing such!

 

“When these discussions an religion turn into pissing contests..”

Then don’t turn them into pissing contests.. have a think, decide what you are, whether this be atheist, agnostic, sometimes theist or whatever, and stick with it. By all means take on the debate with what you do not agree with… in the name of free speech and for God’s sake!!

The debate with theists must continue, else thoughts and ideals are not debated, fears are not dissuaded, and progress will not be made, and minds will not be changed. This Orwellian attitude towards theistic censorship and now to critique “deemed” and “opinionated” as self limiting and does not serve to make progress towards secular freedom.

Yet there is etiquette to be maintained, as I have also previously highlighted regarding snipers and sniping. It is not merely what we say, but how we say it. It only takes a moment to review our own words before we post them, if we do, and have, and are satisfied, then that is sufficient in my book to serve the motive and purposes of integrity. Emotions may flare at times, this must be expected. Critique may prove severe at times, this is necessary - for progress?

 

@ Hank..

May I remind you of what you previously posted below

“Cygnus - I am wearing two hats here, on this thread. I think it is the honest thing to do, and I intend to keep doing it.

One hat is I am the blog editor. As such, I have been very tolerant, publishing numerous articles that I don’t agree with, for the public to dispute. I have censored no one’s opinion, and I haven’t been biased in the publication content, nor do I intend to be. If I put a moratorium on religion here, the moratorium will also be on anti-religion (atheism).

The other hat is I that am personally militantly atheist. As such, I indulge my right to express my opinion in that regard, like everyone else does. I suppose I could say that because I am Managing Director, that I will pose myself above the fray, that I will be neutral, and not-engage, but I am choosing not to do that. 

Wearing this hat, as a commenting ordinary reader, I am happy to say whatever I want, however I want.  This means that I can of course attack theists in any way that I choose. You can call my attacks on religionists bigoted, tiresome, non-constructive, whatever you wish. You can even say, as you are implying, that my behavior is unethical in some type of way. I personally disagree and your disapproval of what I say and how I say it is certainly not going to make me be silent, or even hesitate for a second. My opinion is that you want me to behave in some way that is PC to you, but absolute nonsense to me.”

http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/dvorsky20120515


I hope you still stand by the above comments, because this is a reminder of the integrity required to pursue constructive debate here?

 

I reiterate once more..

“Once again, what right has the Atheist to claim exclusivity over Trans-humanism goals, ideals and philosophy? What hope of convincing minds by way of “aggression and ridicule”?

 





@CygnusX1 re “Once again, what right has the Atheist to claim exclusivity over Trans-humanism goals, ideals and philosophy? What hope of convincing minds by way of “aggression and ridicule”?”

Well said, and I will add that the result may well be the opposite of what they wish, to push those who wish to keep a neutral attitude toward theism.

For example, I don’t drink much alcohol and I think drinking is stupid, but if I see drinkers oppressed by a moral majority I will side with them, and I will start drinking myself to better express my support.





@ Andre, and Stefan too - continuing what I said above.

I believe one of the fun things about being a commenter at IEET is the high level of interaction that commenters get here with the writers.
Many of the writers here spend a huge amount of time answering questions from commenters and arguing with them. To name a few: Giulio, Hank, Peg Tittle, Alex, Peter Wicks, David Pearce, and my apologies to anyone else I forgot to mention. I think having direct access to writers is fun and I am proud that IEET writers provide this.

I think perhaps the main reason IEET writers even read the commenter’s remarks is because they have a certain trust that the remarks are not going to be silly or a personal attack. On sites where essays just get butchered for fun by out-of-control, unsupervised commenters, writers quickly learn to steer clear of even bothering to read the remarks. And they might - I have - look for other sites to write where they can have a more respectful dialogue with their readers.

I am perhaps over-stating the value of writer’s participation here, because it does seem sometimes like commenters have their own community, that they happily bicker amongst each other, and they don’t really need the writer’s participation. But in actuality, they really do. If that writer hadn’t written that article, the commenters wouldn’t have the opportunity to discuss their POVs about it.

It is also wonderful, in my opinion, that many IEET writers are regular commenters on each other’s essays.

Andre and Stefan - if you know of a H+ site that has a better interaction between writers and commenters, let me know what it is. I haven’t found a better community myself, which is why I am here. I heard there was a good community at Less Wrong, but I didn’t particularly like it. There’s also a community at KurzweilAI, that iPan went to for a while, but now he’s back here.

I am sorry to cramp anyone’s style, but I want a certain happy symbiosis between writers and commenters here, and I will be doing what I think is right to to maintain that.

Regarding religion, I don’t see how the IEET religionists can accuse the IEET atheists of being a rabid minority, when the atheists are the immense majority. It is the religionists that are the minority, and are they actually the rabid ones?

I’m going to sleep, it is 3:19 am here.





Building on Hank’s comments about the relationship between writers and commenters, I’m one of the (I guess) small minority of writers who started out as a regular commenter and only then progressed to actually writing articles, so I have seen both sides of this one: both that of a non-writer commenter, and that of a writer who also engages with commenters.

As a non-writer commenter, I certainly appreciated it when authors engaged with comments, and I used to find it frustrating and somewhat disrespectful when they didn’t, but over time I’ve learnt to accept this, and to indeed enjoy (most of the time!) the company of my fellow commentators. I like to think we are doing something more valuable than just bickering among ourselves, but I don’t really have much in the way of evidence for this.

As a writer, I like to receive comments, and I haven’t yet been troubled by rude or disrespectful ones in reaction to my articles. I have occasionally been troubled by persistently rude and disrespectful responses to my comments, but so far never my articles. Fortunately, no-one has yet described any of my articles as “naïve to the point of unreadability”.

Like Hank, I haven’t yet come across a better community of commenters and writers than I find here at IEET, but also like Hank I often find the persistence with which some commenters repeat the same old opinions, especially religious ones, irritating. I’m not saying my own experience is any more valid or noteworthy than anyone else’s, but I hope you can all agree that it is at least relevant, and sincerely noted.

@Giulio I’ll check out the Turing Church site.





@Peter - I also often find the persistence with which some commenters repeat the same old opinions, especially anti-religious ones, irritating.

As you know, I don’t think anyone can really persuade others to change their mind on religion. So, in some sense the never-ending discussion is useless.

At the same time, I enjoy debating fresh, solid, logically consistent and well written arguments (like yours) against my position.

Some other posters (of course I won’t make names) make fools of themselves by expressing their hatred of religion with naive, idiotic, inconsistent and poorly written non-arguments.

I find these very boring, and I think they decrease the usually high intellectual level of this forum. However, sometimes a stupid enemy is as useful as a smart ally, so I don’t complain;-)





“I partly agree, but then why do militant atheists keep obsessively dragging each and every discussion back to religion (examples in the recent Mao San thread and others)?”


In Europe it is different; in America the religious outnumber atheists and use Gays, Guns and God (merely for instance) as political weapons: wedge issues. Now as my first comment at the beginning of this thread demonstrates, the Gay in Gays Guns and God is being removed from the equation, but of course not wholly—as straights outnumber gays in the way the religious outnumber atheists (in America, naturally). If the religious want atheists to not attack them, the religious will have to reciprocate.





“One more point I like to address here is the tendency of the atheist crowd to on the one hand refuse to engage the matter of religion on a rational and academic level and on the other hand are terribly offended by opinions and perspectives that are counter their own. The former leads to an inability to engage them with substance, the latter causes all kinds of unhelpful animosities. As result substance and civility suffers.”


It works both ways; you yourself don’t immediately trust a religious person, do you? you may never fully trust them—and why not?: because they harbor ulterior motives; thus though one can accomodate oneself to their beliefs.. to what degree can one compromise without being severely manipulated by them and vice versa? takes two to tango.
As for you being bored by the technical aspects of transhumanism, not being a scientist or engineer, I cannot reply.





Stefan, Among the proponents of atheism here I am probably one of the more patient, but I find your latest comment exceedingly irritating.

Firstly, you disrespectfully refer to an “atheist crowd”. I have never referred to a “religious crowd”

Secondly, you allege that the “crowd” in question - apparently without exception - is unwilling to “engage in the matter of religion on a rational and academic level” and are easily offended by arguments opposing atheism. I, for one, am neither. I am not offended by arguments against atheism unless they appear to be deliberately obscurantist or dishonest. By contrast I do resent false accusations.

Thirdly, you claim that “a lot of what transhumanists dream about is how long they will be able to hold their breath or how fast they will be able to run or how smart they will be”. I certainly have a very different impression from the discussions I have participated in here. In fact, one of the motivations behind atheist militancy is precisely the wish to replace the broken, horse-drawn carriage that is (traditional) religion with the hypersonic jet of reason and well-targeted technology, which includes, for example, mindfulness techniques stripped of their religious/superstitious context. Please take the trouble to look at Sam Harris’s talk on Death and the Present Moment for an excellent example of this.

Finally, you adapt Fukuyama murderous canard (“these are the last people one would want to live forever”) and apply it to “new atheists”. Are you not even aware how much persecution of atheists and other so-called “apostates” goes on throughout the world.

So in summary you’re entire comment is disrespectful, false, and bigoted.





Stefan,

To recap, what I described as disrespectful, false and bigoted were the following:

1. your lumping of all atheists together as a “crowd”;
2. the claim that atheists IN GENERAL are unwilling to discuss rationally and easily offended;
3. your claim that transhumanists tend to care mainly about shallow, materialistic enhancements;
4. your insinuation that it would be undesirable for one of the “new atheists” (which you still have not defined, by the way) were to transcend.

Now it is a universal characteristic of militancy, of whatever flavour, that the militants tend to be emotionally invested in whatever they are being militant about, and this will often make them less fair-minded and willing to debate alternative points of view calmly tha. Otherwise might be the case. So of course, this applies to militant atheists as well. Nothing in my previous comment contradicts this, nor does it validate the claims in your previous comment, which I continue to regard as unjustifiably disrespectful and riddled with falsehood.

I have pointed out several times that I am not a particularly committed, let alone “militant”, atheist. We have both admitted on another thread that we engage in rhetoric from time to time. I become militant in certain circumstances, and the way in which several people, including yourself, have been defending religion on this site recently certainly brings out the militancy in me. This is when I start to use rhetoric but I would indeed be concerned if i thought this was leading me to say things that were false or unjustifably offensive. Happily this is not the case. As for who does or doesn’t take me seriously, that is of course up to them.





Stefan - you still need to work on adopting a more respectful tone.

I have started to edit out your comments that I regard as deliberately rude - but it is too much work for me to do that, to go in and just take out sentences that I find intentionally insulting.

Just try a little harder to be polite. I don’t have enough time to moderate you line by line - if I see rudeness I might just takeout your entire entry

Hank





Stefan—thanks for understanding - I do appreciate it.

I am on vacation so it might take 3-4 hours to get your comments on the site.





@Stefan

If you mean militants, then say militants. Otherwise you are like the Islamophobes who conflate law-abiding Moslems with jihadist terrorists.

I’m not interested in discussing with you whether I am more or less committed to atheism or militant about it than I realise. But to address your suggestion that it is “immature” to label oneself atheist when “all one can deduce with reason is a stance of agnosticism”, let me remind you that reason alone does not provide a reason to believe ANYTHING. One reason I label myself atheist is that in practice I live my life without reference to any kind of deity. I live as if there were no God. Just as I live on the assumption that the scientific method is the surest path to the truth, and that the sun will rise tomorrow. I don’t know any of these things for sure.





By the way, I don’t regard providing academic sources for the positions one takes here as “a common courtesy”. It can be helpful, if one happens to have them to hand, but I certainly don’t think it’s something that anyone participating in this kind of discussions should feel obliged to do. If you feel that my “failure” to do so somehow invalidates my comments, that’s up to you. I will just repeat what I have already mentioned once, namely that there are various sources of evidence, of which peer-reviewed academic studies are only one (and not always the most reliable).





After reading through all these comments (I have been off of the forums for a bit, life keeps getting in the way) I am struck by one thing above all.  Both theists and atheists keep generalizing about each other.  I don’t like the use of speech to imply all persons of any group are prone to specific negative traits unless the trait is by definition the action that defines the group.  Not all religious persons are intolerant, doctrine driven hate mongers.  Nor are all atheists out to discredit and wreak havoc and hate against theists.  This being said, I agree that sexual preference and such are “Wedge issues” and used to control the uneducated religious (or non-religious but under educated) masses.  I deal with patients who are denied basic care giving and insurance sharing rights because some one insists on specific plumbing combinations for “legal reasons”.  I also have friends who have been subjected to violence due to their orientation and more than half of the assaults I have had recounted to me (and occasionally provided medical care for) have been recounted as a result of fear and misinformation but they did not have an inherently religious aspect to them.  Religion can be (and historically has sometimes been) a refuge for minorities.  Could we get past stereotyping and move into person by person issues?  I tire of this anger and negativity that seems to permeate so many things here and is a deciding factor why I visit forums less and less.  I don’t come here to see religion bashed or praised.  I come here to discuss issues that deal with a forward moving, solution oriented look at the world.





Thanks Pendula, you are absolutely right.

Generalising about the other side is a fundamental human motivation and can be a lot of fun. But it can also be off-putting for those not closely involved, get in the way of serious progress, and escalate dangerously.

I sincerely hope and believe that with our new Right Speech policy this site is now becoming the place you want it to be: a place where you can come to discuss issues that deal with a forward moving, solution oriented look at the world.





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