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IEET > Rights > PostGender > Trustees > Martine Rothblatt

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Billions of Sexes (Part 2)


Martine Rothblatt
Martine Rothblatt
Transgender To Transhuman

Posted: Mar 13, 2012

Professor Sylvia Law, a noted legal scholar, argued that “a core feminist claim is that women and men should be treated as individuals, not as members of a sexually determined class.” This is also a theme that Supreme Court justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg emphasized in her lawsuits as a women’s rights advocate: “Nurturing children in my ideal world would not be a woman’s priority, it would be a human priority.” This feminism rejects sex-based differences among people as wholly irrelevant to any socioeconomic purpose. As Simone de Beauvoir noted some four decades ago: “One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman.”

New Feminist Thinking

It is but a short step from the new feminist thinking to our thesis. If sex-based differences are irrelevant, then what is the point of saying one is either male or female? While there is often a medical reality to sex-based differences, this does not justify a carryover of sex typing to the social, economic, and legal spheres of life. There are innumerable medical differences among people, such as diabetes or propensity to heart disease, but this does not justify the creation of a legal straightjacket of difference about such medical conditions.

The feminist insistence upon seeing individuals as individuals, regardless of sexual biology, can now be carried to its next logical step: individuals are individuals, not sex types. Labeling people as male or female, upon birth, exalts biology over sociology. Instead the new feminist principles inspire us to permit all people to self-identify their sexual status along a broad continuum of possibilities and to create such cultures of gender as human ingenuity may develop.

The bimodal segregation of people into men and women has oppressed women from the time of the ancients. As Margaret Mead observed in her 1949 treatise Male and Female, the effect of creating artificial expectations for each sex is to “limit the humanity of the other sex.” As we gradually free ourselves from stamping newborn babies as one sex or the other, gender expectations will become self-defining and the full cultural liberation of all people can occur at last.

Scientific Developments

Soon after feminism opened academia’s eyes to the reality that people with vaginas were no different socioeconomically from people with penises, scientific research began to accumulate data that blurred even the biological differences between supposed sex types. As of 1990 Johns Hopkins University sexologist Dr. John Money was able to summarize research in this area: “Despite the multiplicity of [apparent] sex differences, those that are immutable and irreducible are few. They are specific to reproduction: men impregnate, and women menstruate, gestate, and lactate …. However, in light of contemporary experimental obstetrics, being pregnant is no longer an absolutely immutable sex difference. The hormones and stimuli required for normal fetal development are intrinsic and within the early embryo.”

Dr. Money was referring to recent experiments in which male baboons were made to serve as surrogate mothers for zygotes fertilized in the test tube. The embryos grew in a fatty cavity near the intestines and were delivered by cesarean section as healthy infants. In a similar vein, Dr. Money reported on ectopic pregnancies in women whose wombs had previously been removed and on zygotes that implanted themselves in the small intestine and grew their own placenta—with the implication that a man could have carried the embryo as well. All of these cases strongly suggest that even nurturance of a child, with technological help, is not an absolute biological imperative of any one subclass of humans.

Further scientific advances in the areas of genetic engineering and neonatal care foretell the likelihood that a zygote might be formed from the chromosomes of two women or of two men, assuming the necessary biochemical codes that enable cellular union are learned. Once this scientific threshold is passed, the axiom that “men impregnate” will no longer be strictly true. Of course, one need not wait for this science-fiction scenario to occur: as long as sperm banks and in vitro fertilization exist, the relevance of men’s monopoly on impregnation disappears. Impregnation becomes a commodity. And as long as surrogate motherhood is legally available, the relevance of women’s monopoly on gestation disappears. Gestation becomes a commodity.

Scientific developments have blurred the differences between supposed sex types to a greater degree than most people imagine. Feminism tells us that the differences between sexual biology are irrelevant to socioeconomic behavior. And science tells us that the differences between sexual biology are remarkably few and disappearing rapidly.

It might be argued that science masks true sexual differences, since men do impregnate naturally, and women do gestate and lactate naturally. But this argument seems unpersuasive: it could just as well be said that since most men are stronger than most women, men must do “heavy work,” and since women lactate naturally, they must be the ones to care for infants. Yet thanks to science and technology, heavy work can be done with the pushing of buttons, and infant formula can be dispensed from a bottle. Science did not mask “true” differences between sexes; it just made those differences irrelevant in everyday life, allowing us to achieve the continuum of sex types that are possible today.

Transgenderism

A grass-roots movement called transgenderism developed during the 1980s. The guiding principle of this movement is that people should be free to change, either temporarily or permanently, the sex type to which they were assigned since infancy. Transgenderism makes manifest the continuum nature of sex types because even if a sex type was real birth, it can now be changed at will during one’s life.

There are two main types of persons in the movement: transsexuals and cross-dressers. Transsexuals use sex hormones and sometimes plastic surgery to change their anatomy toward the other sex type. The results are so persuasive that rarely can a “new man” or “new woman” be distinguished from a biological original. Over a thousand persons a year actually have sex change surgery, and many more than this number simply use hormones to change their facial hair, voice, and physique. What sex type are these persons? The law calls them the sex of their genitals, but in reality they are occupying a vast middle ground on a continuum of sex types.

The cross-dressers use attitude, clothing and perhaps makeup to give the appearance of belonging to the other sex or to an androgynous middle ground. Most modern women may be considered cross-dressers since they often wear clothing normally intended for men. What is a new phenomenon is the rapidly rising number of men who wear women’s clothing. Because a male-dominated society frowns on its members mimicking the “inferior” female class, male cross-dressers are usually deep in the closet.

In questioning why there is a growing transgenderism movement, we reach to the heart of the question of sex typing. Transgendered people of all types normally report that they feed a need to express a gender identity different from the one society associates with their genitals. Leading psychologists explain this need by positing that the transgendered person’s neonatal brain was at least partially feminized (or masculinized) while their genitals were masculinized (or feminized). But if the new feminism and scientific research is correct, there are no “male” and “female” brains. Even if there were, is it reasonable to posit that brain patterns can dictate a need to wear one or another type of clothing? Do all the women who wear blue jeans and T-shirts have masculinized transgendered brains?

A more likely explanation is that sex is a continuum along which people, if allowed, will flow naturally to a comfortable resting point. What that resting point is depends upon the same complex of mental propensities and chance socialization that leads people to adopt one or another career, hobby, or religion. It is a matter not of “male” and “female” brains, but of chance orientations toward primal responses such as “aggression” or “nurturance,” limited by social pressures. Modern female cross-dressing represents gender creativity unconstrained by social rejection. Male cross-dressing is rare because society frowns on male gender creativity.

For most people society’s gender rules are so powerful that they simply go with the flow. But in every society there are the free spirits, the stubborn, and the insistent. In the 1960s they fought for civil rights. In the 1990s they fight for gender rights. The grass-roots transgender movement represents those people who are brave enough to risk some opprobrium to explore the gender continuum. Once that opprobrium is eliminated, the ranks of gender and sex-type explorers is sure to increase manyfold.

The Apartheid of Sex

We live under an apartheid of sex. At birth we are cast into a sex type based on our genitals. From then on we are brainwashed into a sex-type-appropriate culture called gender. Women can mimic (but not too much) the powerful entrenched men. But men who try to be “womanish” face the kind of vicious scorn reserved for traitors or the humiliation accorded masters who identified with slaves.

Like the apartheid of race, blurring of class boundaries is the gravest offense because it challenges the division of reality. Hence the old feminist doctrine of “separate but equal” was more acceptable to the male power structure, because they knew that it would never occur. But the new feminist doctrine of sexual continuity is threatening—it destroys the male-dominated power structure completely. If there are no hard and fast sex types, then there can be no apartheid of sex. If there is no apartheid of sex, then there is no entrenched birthright of power—people must achieve on their own. To men threatened by economics and social survival, loss of birthright superiority is frightening.

The apartheid of sex is every bit as harmful, painful, and oppressive as is the apartheid of race. When people are categorized at birth into a sociolegal class on the basis of chance biology, they will be socialized into a segregated culture. Once they are so socialized, human potential will be repressed, for the mind does not know boundaries except for those imposed upon it from outside. Our legacy of sexual apartheid is countless millennia of female oppression and male frustration, of gynacide and warfare.

The apartheid of sex is too ancient to be dismantled overnight. But there are concrete steps that can start the process of liberating humanity’s future, among them:

• Adopting resolutions in the psychological and medical community to the effect that sex in humans is a continuous variable, a complex of phenotypic and genotypic factors as unique as one’s fingerprints. While male and female categories are useful to group biological characteristics for medical purposes, these same categories have socially detrimental effects when used outside the field of medicine.

• Adopting laws that prohibit the classification of people according to sex type except for bona fide medical purposes.

• Adopting educational curricula and entertainment programming that encourage the concept of self-defined sex and flexible gender behaviors.

Sex should really be the sum of behaviors we call gender—an adjective, not a noun. People should explore genders. When they settle on a set of gender behaviors, the name for that set describes their sex. There are billions of sex types: from Rambo to Oprah, from Madonna to Prince, from deep blue to blood red, and a vast rainbow of androgynous possibilities in between. The important point is that gender exploration should come first, through free choice, and that sex is just the label for one’s chosen gender.

Today we go about the matter of sex ass backward. A male or female label is first imposed upon us without choice. We are then trained to adopt a set of appropriate gender behaviors, whether we like them or not. We have some flexibility in our particular choice of gender behavior but not much choice, lest we fall afoul of the apartheid of sex. However, feminism, technology, and transgenderism have debunked the myth of a “male and female” world. Life has much more gender potential than we can imagine.

As we break free of the chains of sexual apartheid, we will establish a new human culture of unparalleled creativity in personal development. From homo sapiens, literally the “wise man,” shall emerge our new species, persona creatus, the “creative person.” From the subjugation of women shall emerge the sensitization of men. And from the apartheid of sex shall evolve the freedom of gender.

Persona Creatus

A new species implies a very fundamental break with the DNA-based definition of homo sapiens. Yet, as indicated above, we have already made that fundamental break as a consequence of technological changes in the way we live and reproduce. Our DNA no longer dictates all aspects of our individual survival, for if it did near-sighted individuals would be gone, eaten by predators they could not see. Our DNA no longer dictates our ability to pass on our genes. In vitro fertilization with or without embryo transfer routinely provides reproduction for hundreds of thousands of infertile couples.

The rise of transgenderism provides sociobiologists with evidence of a new species. An important part of most species’ signature is the characteristically gender dimorphic behaviors of their members. However, as noted above, thanks to culture and technology, humans are leaving those gender dimorphic behaviors behind as they come to appreciate the limitless uniqueness of their sexual identities. As our creativity has blossomed, we have matured from homo sapiens into persona creatus.

The greatest catapult for humanity into a new species lies just beyond the event horizon of transgenderism. Based upon our rapidly accelerating ability to imbue software with human personality, autonomy and self-awareness, a movement of “transhumanists” have joined transgenderists in calling for the launch of persona creatus. The basic transhumanist concept is that a human need not have a flesh body, just as a woman need not have a real vagina. Humanness is in the mind, just as is sexual identity. As software becomes increasingly capable of thinking, acting and feeling like a human, it should be treated as a fellow human, and welcomed as a fellow member of the technological species persona creatus.

The biologist will insist that members of a common species be capable of producing fertile offspring, and so it is for transhumans and persona creatus. Reproduction will no long necessarily occur, however, via joined DNA. Instead, people of flesh will upload into software the contents and processes of their minds. Think of this as taking all of your digital photos, movies, emails, online chats, google searches and blogging to the next level, and merging it with “mindware” that can replicate how you think, feel and react based on the huge digital database of your thoughts, feelings and reactions. Once we have thus digitally cloned our minds, new digital people can be produced by combining some of our mindware with some of our partner’s mindware. Voila, there are fertile offspring and the species persona creatus is alive. Furthermore, since purely digital people can reproduce with flesh humans in this manner, the humans and the transhumans are common members of persona creatus.

Freedom of gender is, therefore, the gateway to a freedom of form and to an explosion of human potential. First comes the realization that we are not limited by our gross sexual anatomy. Then comes the awakening that we are not limited by our anatomy at all. The mind is the substance of humanity. Mind is deeper than matter.


Martine Rothblatt serves on the IEET Board of Trustees and is author of several books on satellite communications technology, gender freedom, genomics, and xenotransplantation.
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COMMENTS


“Dr. Money was referring to recent experiments in which male baboons were made to serve as surrogate mothers for zygotes fertilized in the test tube. ” That is a rather famous hoax. There is no scientific publication whatsoever about those experiments. Cecil Jacobson created a rumors in the sixties about that. And urban legends did the rest. Using this kind of material really does not improve the quality of the article.

As far as we know now, there has NEVER been any male organism capable of give birth, no matter how much technological help doctors/scientists provided. We have in fact reasons to believe that such event is structurally impossible - given the biochemical reactions that a male body would trigger.

“Adopting laws that prohibit the classification of people according to sex type except for bona fide medical purposes.” So, basically, if a person searched for a partner, to make a family, should be fined/imprisoned. This is exactly the kind of fascist prescription that I feared. Reproduction is not a medical procedure - and gender/sex identification is an obvious step towards reproduction. We create a violent superstructure to change a regular net of human relations based on mutual consent and devoid of coercion. Great.

“Adopting educational curricula and entertainment programming that encourage the concept of self-defined sex and flexible gender behaviors.” I can see an obvious theoretical bias here. Traditional gender-specific educational patterns represent some kind of violent “brainwashing”, while transsexually oriented curricula should be imposed to children because they are much healthier (?). Please.

“The rise of transgenderism provides sociobiologists with evidence of a new species. ” This is really something. Maybe it would be useful to check the (current) scientific definition of a biological species (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species) : a group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring. Try that with transvestites and transsexuals.

Sorry if I am so critical, but I believe that it is important to base our ethical judgments on facts AND compassion. I think the article disregard both. Inverting the polarity of social abuses does not create a better world. Yes, defending transsexuals and transvestites from abuses is the right thing to do. But trying to purposefully eradicate peaceful, natural sexuality in humans is just wrong.





Again, same concerns as Andre. What we need is a science- and values-based exploration of how we want gender to evolve in the future. There are good reasons to want to get away from the current almost exclusively male-female divide, but denying that it exists (biologically) and proposing draconian and illiberal “solutions” is not the way to do it.

“sex differences…that are immutable and irreducible…[exist and] are specific to reproduction”. Exactly, and those differences have been imposed on us by our biology, however inconvenient this truth may be for some. We might indeed be able to change that with technology in the (near?) future, and all the social baggage that goes along with biological gender can and must be questioned, but trying to manipulate evidence about what is to support our notions of what should be is just plain wrong.





@Peter Wicks

I agree with you, absolutely. We should explore how technology can give transsexuals a chance to reproduce, or to modify their bodies so that they can enjoy a better life.

For example, I read some years ago of an amazing surgical technique that allows men with an artificial vagina to have orgasms. The idea was to recreate a sensitive clitoris from a vestigial portion of their (removed) penis.

I think there is more benefit for transsexuals in the development of that technology, than in a law that promotes transsexualism in elementary schools, or punish sexual identification outside hospitals.





Especially the latter. I am more sympathetic to the idea of promoting transsexualism in elementary schools (as a legitimate choice, not as something anyone should be pressured into doing): at least this is focusing on something positive, rather than on what we want to discourage. Except in situations of genuine urgency (and this isn’t one), this is always a more effective strategy.





Okay, again I don’t find attempts to eradicate gender very helpful, and more like an effort in futility aimed at being “politically correct” than something useful or needed.

The essence of morphological freedom is not about imposed gender neutrality, but in allowing every individual a choice not only in gender, but in their own personal expression of it. As we develop the ability to change everything about our bodies, we will begin to naturally explore the continuum that Martine is talking about here, and the entrenched concepts we currently have as non-morphologically free individuals will erode away as they cease to have meaning. Trying to force this to occur BEFORE morphological freedom has been achieved is as unlikely to be effective as attempts to eradicate racial prejudices has been.

I want to be an “in your face female”, an unambiguous, gigantic breasted, hormonally overloading sextoy who’s very presence screams FUCK ME!!!!!!!!! Like Khannea, I want to leave a trail of rock hard cocks and wet panties behind me as I walk by. So trying to get me to use a “neutral” pronoun and denying my gender is pointless. I will never willingly chose to be genderless.

What all this “neutrality” is trying to do is enforce a cookie cutter monochromatic one size fits all industrial era “monoculture” of grey. I’m not interested in grey. I’m about colors. A million genders is not enough. six billion genders is better, and an infinity of genders better yet.

The future is not about the homogenization culture inflicted on us by the industrial era models of interchangeable parts, but about the IDIC. Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.  The market of the Longest tail will take care of determining what gender pronouns we will use in the future, and do so without any deliberation or consideration of the political correctness that has been displayed so far in all these articles and posts.

Forget the cookie cutters. Forget homogenization. It’s not about neutrality. It’s about ACCEPTANCE. It’s about CHOICE. It’s about allowing EVERYONE to decide for themselves whether they are a he she hir or it, and NOT PENALIZING THEM FOR DOING SO. It’s about embracing the different. Xenophilia vs Xenophobia. Allowing individuality vs enforcing a monotone.

Neutrality is the wrong course of action.

Oh, and Martine, I would love to read your books. Could I maybe pay for copies of them by writing reviews? I’m struggling too much to make the bills right now to be able to afford them from Amazon. (big huge anime eyes)





@Valkyrie re “I want to be an “in your face female”, an unambiguous, gigantic breasted, hormonally overloading sextoy who’s very presence screams FUCK ME!!!!!!!!!”

If that is what you want, I wish you the best! I should tell you, however, that I have always found this type of person about as attractive as a washing machine or less, and they have always had the opposite effect on me. I have always preferred understatement, and I guess I am not the only one.





To be fair to Martine, I don’t for a minute think she is trying to “enforce a cookie cutter monochromatic one size fits all industrial era monoculture of grey”. What she’s trying to do is to get away from what she calls the “apartheid of sex”. Nor am I as dismisses as Val-chan seems to be about our efforts to eradicate racial prejudice: we may have failed, but progress has been made.

What offends me about thiis article is the attempt to downplay the current neat biological division into male and female as a reason for abandoning gender as a social category. It just isn’t supported by evidence, and the more you try to tie your agenda to that rotten tree the more likely it is to fall on top of your head. It’s easy to ridicule people who claim that our tendency to divide ourselves into male and female is one big conspiracy rather than a natural consequence of biology; much harder to ridicule those who accept that it is the latter, but still want to decouple this from the various other assumptions we make about gender.

For most purposes in modern life our biological gender is essentially irrelevant, so we shouldn’t be making such a huge big deal out of it. Once all the noise and shouting has dies down this is pretty obvious to everyone, except the most neurotic. Trying to claim that biological gender does not exist just plays into the hands of the neurotics.





I am very much in agreement with much of what Martine says - but I’ve said as much in the comment thread for “Ms. and Mr.”, and will not say it again as I’m starting to feel like I’m tilting at windmills here.  Martine’s piece is, unlike mine, FULL of facts, references, and detailed lines of reasoning - and still, you resist, you WANT an apartheid of sex.





Peg, I’m not sure whom you’re addressing here but in any case I find your comment grossly disrespectful.





In a somewhat better mood now (warm sunshine here in Brussels), so I’ll soften that to “somewhat disrespectful”. But it really is, Peg. You can’t go making insinuations about people’s motivations just because they disagree with you. And there really is a problem with Martine’s attempt to downplay the clarity with which biology has bequeathed the division into male and female that we currently live with.

By the way as far as I recall you still haven’t responded to my idea of calling everybody “she”, have you? Whatever else it is, it’s certainly not an attempt to maintain an apartheid of sex.





Peter, yes, I should have been more targeted with my comments.  I’d gotten the gist of Martine’s piece and the gist of Andre’s response, and thought ‘here we go away’ - resistance, challenge, ...

I did reply to your ‘she’ idea - I said I thought it was a bad idea b/c (whose apartment to move into?) - better to move to a neutral so as not to favor one or the other.  Using ‘she’ - it may not maintain an apartheid of sex, but it will certainly continue to endorse the view that sex is so important it must be an almost-mandatory prefix.

I’m posting a follow-up on Ms./Mr. since we’re doing a bit of a disservice to Martine’s piece, not really addressing her points…





Strictly that was in response to my idea of calling everyone “he”, which you rightly pointed out would only exacerbate discrimination, and calling everyone “she” was my response to that. I still think it has merit.

To be honest I think we ARE addressing Martine’s points, or at least the main gist, namely e need to get away from the apartheid of sex. On reflection it’s undoubtedly true that I have FAR less sense of urgency about this than people like you and Martine, and indeed there are things I quite like about the current “apartheid”. I admit it. But I also understand the reasons why it invites unhealthy discrimination, so this is absolutely not what I’m opposing on this thread. It’s the denial of reality that bothers me. We shouldn’t try to pretend nature has done something other than it has in order to convince people to end this apartheid. We have much better arguments than that.





Whether our gender roles deny reality is, of course, the whole nature/nurture debate.  But even if one were to concede near total reductionism and say we ARE the sum total of our biochemistry, the question remains: which, if any, aspects of that biochemistry should be mandatory/polite parts of our identity.  So I’m back to making sex that is as bad as making skin color and eye color that.  Don’t the tutus and hutus identify themselves on the basis of height?  And don’t they have an apartheid of height?  (Yes, displaying an alarming ignorance here…)





I’m not taking sides on the nature/nurture debate as far as gender _roles_ are concerned. I’m convinced that it’s a bit of both, but beyond hat I don’t think it’s possible to draw reliable conclusions on the basis of current (mostly highly speculative, albeit intriguing) research. What I’m taking sides on is the issue of whether nature has bequeathed us a largely unambiguous divide into male-female as far as _biological_ gender is concerned. That is to say, approximately half of us have XX chromosome pairs, vaginas, breasts, uteruses etc (sorry if I got the plural totally wrong there), while approximately the other half of us XY chromosome pairs, penises, testes and vestigial nipples. With corresponding differences in hormonal balance, role in reproduction, menstruation, and neurological development (albeit with highly debatable, and debated, consequences with regard to mental development, skills etc). And of course there’s a handful (hundreds of thousands!!! but out of 6.7 billion) that don’t quite fit into this neat divide. And they should be respected, and protected, and treasured, as should those who don’t feel their biological inheritance conforms to their psychological sexual identity and would therefore like to change it.





Two things.

1) I don’t you can talk about more than two genders until you include all other organisms.  For humans the biological genders are male and female (the same goes for transsexuals who switch genders rather than become a new one) and the proportionally few who are called ‘hermaphrodites’ (or at the least have mixed sex characteristics) are either sterile or have only one of the two genital structures fully functioning.  It is because of this that they are considered an abnormality in medical terms.  If you include all other organisms, however, you have a more diverse range of what you might call genders or sexes (is there a difference between the two?).  Not only do you have males and females, you have true hermaphrodites, asexuals, and even organisms that reproduce sexually and asexually (I don’t know if there is a name for such organisms).

2)  This is for any radical idea or invention.  If you want to go forward with a radical idea (in this case) you have to make sure that it passes three checks.  First, that it is in touch with reality, second, it is supported, and third, even if it passes the first two checks no idea will go far without public acceptance.  I actually got these three checks from a NewScientist magazine article that responded to the book “Abundance” which I believe there were a few articles posted here concerning it.  I thought these checks are something people on this site might need to consider for any radical idea they have.

I have the whole article copied if anyone wants me to type it for them.





@Christian

OK, “in touch with reality” I can agree with, although “reality” can often be counter-intuitive. The business as usual scenarios that most people consider “realistic” are likely to be wildly off beam in this era of rapidly accelerating change.

Now to get ideas off the ground, indeed first you need support by a band of influential believers, and then eventually public acceptance. But these are not criteria for deciding whether an idea is sound in the first place. As Henry Ford said: “if I’d asked the users what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse”.

Nice to see you back, by the way!





@ Peter Wicks

I’ve been back, I just didn’t post comments in the same threads you have be part of.  BTW, what are the criteria for deciding whether an idea is sound or not in your opinion.





You have to have some idea of what consequences you would expect the idea to have if it were implemented. And keep an open mind. Piloting ideas is usually good because it gives you a real-world test. But have the courage of your convictions, and don’t kill ideas before they’ve even been road-tested. A great question to ask is: “What’s the worst that can happen?”





@Peter Wicks

“And of course there’s a handful (hundreds of thousands!!! but out of 6.7 billion) that don’t quite fit into this neat divide. “

You underestimate the number “not fitting” by a factor of at least 1,000.

1 in 300 men on the planet don’t have XY chromosomes for example. So that’s half a million in the USA alone. The idea that only a handful of people are Intersex is widely believed, but not based on fact. We’re not talking about “hundreds of thousands”, we’re talking about “hundreds of MILLIONS” out of 6.7 billion.

Taking together all the different Intersex situations, the figure is at least a million in the US, and may be closer to two million. Not exactly a “handful”.

I myself have one of the rarer forms of Intersex: the 3-beta-hydroxysteroid-dehudrogenase II (3BHSD) deficient form of Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH). One in 500 women have some form of CAH (usually 21-hydroxylase ) so have some degree of masculinisation. In some, the masculinisation is so profound they’re more accurately described as men, rather than women, despite having XX chromosomes.

Whether a mutation that causes unusual development of sexual differentiation is a “natural variation” like the mutation causing red hair, or a ‘disorder” is more an ideological question than a scientific one.

In my case, I was born looking male (mostly) and changed later to look female (mostly). My gender identity has always been female, so I’m quite aware of the social and legal problems Transsexual people face, along with a number of medical issues they don’t. I’m also aware of just how much our concept of “gender” is a social construct, and just how important the small bit that is biological is.l


References:

Sex Chromosome Abnormalities Found Among 34,910 Newborn Children: Results From a 13-Year Incidence Study in Århus, Denmark J.Nielsen and M.Wohlert in Birth Defects: Original Article Series, Volume 26, Number 4, pages 209-223





@Zoe Brain

You’ve certainly piqued my curiosity. Perhaps you’re right, and the biological picture is more blurred than I thought. I got the “hundred of thousands” figure from the first part of Martine’s article. If you are right then the Wikipedia entry on biological gender is also out of date, because reading it a few weeks ago certainly reinforced my previous impression that significant ambiguities in biological gender are somewhat rarer than you are claiming. Of course ultimately this all depends on where you draw the line, i.e. what choices you make regarding classification, but on the essential parameters I still have the impression that nature has left us with a highly bimodal distribution.

It’s a debate worth having, in any case….but we should also be aware of the limitations in its significance. As you say, whether unusual development of sexual differentiation is to be considered as a “disorder” or an interesting variation is an ideological rather than a scientific question, and I am strongly in favour of demedicalising eccentricity to the extent possible. I see a worrying trend in schools today to medicalise personality, which seems to me to be dangerous for humanity. We should be celebrating diversity, not seeking to crush it.

So two points in conclusion. Firstly, if you’re right then the evidence backing up your position needs to be brought out and become much more widely known than it currently is. Secondly, we need to decouple factual questions of the type “How rare is ambiguous biological gender?” with ideological/ethical/policy questions about what we should be doing with gender generally. As I argue in my “End of Gender?” article, things may be about to change radically as a result of technology in any case.





I have been out of town for a couple of days, and look what I see when I came back. I managed to piss Peg off again! I must be her ideal theoretical enemy. At this point, if it turns out that she also hates jazz, red wine, and pizza, we can definitely conclude I am her antithesis.

I “resist and challenge” what I believe is either false or morally wrong. But I do it knowing that my premises are not the only acceptable ones. Martine has all my respect, truly. I do not think she has some kind of problem because I disagree with her own premises. I accept diversity, I praise diversity - I do not just tolerate it (as I might tolerate an annoying mosquito around my face). Nevertheless, I have to point out theoretical inconsistencies, and stressing facts is always a good thing. At least, so I believe.

So, all this big talk about “apartheid”, I think, is really misplaced. As if the mere mentioning of a difference is by itself a form of abuse. Then we must speak of apartheid of colors, since we have a different name for “red” and “blue” surfaces. Apartheid of smells, since we say that roses perfume, while excrements stink. Apartheid of skills, since qualified workers get paid more or less depending on their productive capacities. This whole world and our terribly uneven society are but a display of the most pervasive variety of “apartheids”.

Somehow I believe that hardly anyone who speak about “apartheid” of sexes does really know what social contempt is. I have been in Bavaria, in Munchen, personally - and, being of Mediterranean ethnicity, I might tell you something about real apartheid. Shop assistants deliberately ignore you. People stand up when you sit next to them in the train station. Cops stop you for no reason and won’t let you go until you display total submission. It is really not that pleasant. The average feminist - in the end, I think we are but talking about males abusing females here - has never tried anything like that. I am not talking about South Africa here, I am talking about a rather civilized western country few years ago. So, let us not speak of “apartheid of sexes” when we are not dealing with any abuse, but only on obvious natural differences. It is really not respectful for those who suffered real social ostracism because of their phenotype.

Yes, there is a great variety of human sexual types out there. Men are women are only the main two. But, damn it, why should we even deny that they are the only two fully functional ones (at our evolutionary stage)? Transsexualism and homosexuality are great things, I recommend them to anyone. Experiment, try them, have fun! Yet, they cannot be said to be mere polarities in a symmetrical transsexual continuum. Anyone should feel free to try whatever behavioral pattern that does not harm other beings. But again, we should bear in mind how reality looks like.





Andre, watch “Tootsie”, the old movie with Dustin Hoffman.  Pay careful attention to the scene wherein he makes a suggestion on set, just like he always does, but now as a woman.

And watch the skit by Laurie and Fry, wherein the woman gives a stunningly good presentation at a business meeting, all the men pay attention, praise the idea, then she lets slip that she came up with it on the weekend, when her boyfriend and—as one, the men get up and leave the room.  She’s no longer a potential lay, so she’s no longer worth their (fake) attention.

Women are ignored, dismissed, undervalued, marginalized their whole lives.  Especially if they don’t have the associated-male status of being married to a man.  (Why do you think so many married women flash their wedding band, insist on using ‘Mrs.’, or letting a reference drop to ‘their husband’...) 

It’s all just so pervasive and so subtle, you probably don’t notice it.

We used to get killed.  Called witches if we had any knowledge.  That was before we were allowed in the universities.  We didn’t get the vote until…  In Canada, we weren’t considered legal persons until 1920.  We couldn’t get a bank loan.  We couldn’t own property.  And on and on.

And now?  I mentioned the Jane/John essay.  When we call for information about rustproofing a car, we get half the information our male companion gets when he calls, so we can’t make as informed a decision (we don’t even find out there’s a choice between oil underproofing and wax underproofing).  As I say, it’s just more subtle now.





And when we call for estimates about re-siding the house, half the guys don’t call back.  And the wife of the one who does, and takes the job, calls a neighbor to ask if she has anything to worry about.  Because god knows all single women are harpies and sluts, if we so much as smile at a man.  And if we don’t, we’re just bitches.

And in the classroom, our predominantly male students challenge and question every little thing we say, even an aside about the rule for using a semi-colon, while our male colleagues are ‘allowed’ to get through a lecture without the relentless insistence that we defend EVERYTHING.  Which makes it, everything, just so very exhausting…





Peg, don’t you think you are little bit biased over here? I mean, I do notice that people notice gender. I know almost all societies on this planet are structurally patriarchal - past and modern ones, around the tropics, or near the poles (one of these days we might even discuss why there is such an anomalous association between males and power). Yet, it seems to me that you do not even bother to consider how male life is equally filled with challenges, social traps, and oppression. I assure you, male life is not less exhausting. Ah, and by the way, I think also a few men were killed during the inquisition. And afterwards too. I could make you a similar list of awful aspects of the “male experience” in contemporary societies.

So, thanks to compassion and truth, we can try to change what can be changed - to improve our conditions as human beings, to develop as insightful individuals. All this rebellion against our obvious biological traits - and the cultural and linguistic structures that mirrors them - is not leading anywhere. Let people use any cultural code they want, as long as it does not involve coercion and violence. Each and everyone of us has all the right to react, even with lethal force, when his or her most basic biological functions are threatened. But I really do not understand this gender war, mostly based on “subtle” oppressions. Maybe - it is because I am a bit thick.





@ptittle

...and most importantly, why don’t you like jazz music?





Adding to Andre’s comment, I think the issue of accepting vs denying reality is really crucial here. Peg has very eloquently described her frustrations, which very clearly are shared by many women (but by no means all, and Peg you need also to accept THAT reality, without too much, “Well they SHOULD be frustrated!”), but…

As Andre says, there are many forms discrimination. Some of them are not even thought of as particularly “unfair”, but are no less debilitating for those on the wrong side of them. For example, why are some people more intelligent than others, more beautiful/handsome, more talented, graced with more charming personalities, genetically predisposed to be happier? The raw fact is that God did not create us all equal, useful as the fiction that She did might be. Of course, some of the inequalities seem more arbitrary and man-made than others, and I’m certainly not suggesting we shouldn’t compensate for them, but everything that I’ve learnt about psychology (not least my own) over the last few years tells me that it’s best to start from an attitude of acceptance of current reality: not as a model for the future, necessarily, but as something we are at peace with for the time being.

This is not to say that we shouldn’t be angry. Anger can be a wonderful motivator for positive change (as Cathi Woodward pointed out here around a year ago, of I recall correctly). But it can also be a highly (self-)destructive emotion, so needs to be handled with care and channelled towards positive future scenarios, not merely towards complaining about the past or the present.

Another advantage of identifying positive future scenarios is that we are then less tempted to distort our perception of current reality to make either to make ourselves feel better about it or to wallow in misery. The present is what it is - e.g. biological gender is currently ambiguous or unambiguous to such-and-such an extent, and a fascinating debate that is - but that may not have much bearing on how we want gender to evolve, or how we want social customs to evolve. As Zoe Brain has put it, these latter questions are ideological more than they are scientific, i.e. they are about values, not science. So instead of having a surrogate discussion about science, why not just directly talk about values, and about our positive visions for the future?

So I guess my question for Peg (and others) is: how, ideally, would you like these gender issues to be resolved, and on what kind of timescale?





andre, i don’t think i ever identified myself as a feminist.  i’m more anti-sexist.  see “Short Men” for example, on my site.  and “masculinity kills” and so on.  i agree, the apartheid of sex is damaging to men as well.  i’ve posted that somewhere, referencing Stoltenberg as the only man I’ve seen who’s ‘coming out’ about that…

“All this rebellion against our obvious biological traits - and the cultural and linguistic structures that mirrors them - is not leading anywhere.”
as Martine has shown, I think, they’re not so “obvious”, not nearly as “black and white” as you seem to think.

“Let people use any cultural code they want, as long as it does not involve coercion and violence.”  but it DOES involve coercion and violence.  I fail to see why you don’t see it.  (and that’s what i’m finding so frustrating - it’s been written about for decades…do you deny ALL feminist literature/research?)

No, you don’t understand it.  And I don’t understand why, since you don’t seem particularly thick.





Peter (and Andre), oh please.  Accept the current reality.  Accept your lot in life.  Really?

Of course there are other forms of discrimination.  But that’s a red herring.

“...so needs to be handled with care and channelled towards positive future scenarios, not merely towards complaining about the past or the present.”  and now you’re sounding downright patronizing.  My piece “Ms. and Mr.” was not merely complaining - the abolition of gender titles and pronouns was my positive future scenario.  it would pave the way for the billions of gender you imagine.  And it should’ve been done yesterday.

“Another advantage of identifying positive future scenarios is that we are then less tempted to distort our perception of current reality to make either to make ourselves feel better about it or to wallow in misery.”  I really hope you’re not implying that I am so distorting…to make myself…





@Peg re “as Martine has shown”, I don’t think she HAS shown that, that was the whole point of my first comments on this thread. Zoe has come closer, she has at least sown some doubt (pending clarification of the evidence) in my mind on this point.

Well anyway I don’t want to sound patronising, so apologies for that. But at least give me the credit for being reasonably careful to distinguish accepting current reality AS CURRENT REALITY and accepting current reality as a model for the future (which would be the normal meaning of “accept your lot in life”. Read my comment again and tell me if I really didn’t make that distinction clear.

And to be honest…yes I do feel you come across as more focused on complaints (justified though they may be) than on the positive vision. And that’s not to be patronising, just honest.

Can you at least agree that it doesn’t actually matter that much how ambiguous or unambiguous biological gender currently is? This is probably the key message I want to get across on this thread. We may differ (or not) on the wisdom of abolishing gender titles as a way to pave the way for multiplication of gender (not billions…that’s Martine’s idea), but precisely how rare or common ambiguities in current biological gender are seems to be of at most marginal relevance to this question.

Understand also that this issue of conflating what is with what we would like and/or what we fear and resent is an issue to which I am particularly sensitive, because I see it going on all around me. If you were indeed “so distorting…to make yourself” you would only be like just about 100% of the human race. I do it myself, as well. So please, please don’t take it as a put-down.





Re: Feminism

I’m in, if not a unique, then an unusual position.

For the first 47 years of my life, I presented as male. I had really good reasons to, I looked unarguably male. Like a rather short Linebacker, or Rugby second-row forward, broad shoulders, built like a tank.

At a fertility clinic in 1985, I’d been (mis)diagnosed with “undervirilised male syndrome”, which we now know is due to mild androgen insensitivity. An expert endocrinologist would have taken one look at me, and said “Aye aye….”, as there were certain skeletal anomalies, but with my clothes on, unarguably male. Off, far more anomalies, but they weren’t usually visible.

A good gender specialist psychologist would also have noticed anomalous emotional responses, instincts and body language, and recommended closer examination to see if there was some gender dysphoria present.

In both areas, physical and mental, I was at least three standard deviations from a male mean, not just in one area, but many. There’s so much variation in “Male” and “Female” that no one area stood out as being more unusual than 1 in 1000, but taken together, it was indicative of something awry.

Everyone else just thought of me as a little eccentric, not in an unpleasant way, and nothing to do with sex or gender.  Odd, but nice. A guy who got on really well with female colleagues, possibly gay, but also possibly to “get some”. The men didn’t realise I got on well with other women because I thought, smelt, heard, felt, emoted like them. The women realised I was no threat (and a few told me later some of them wished I had been, a bit), but more like a girlfriend who had access to the Boys Special Club where there were No Girls Allowed.

I was upset at the way half of my friends were treated. I didn’t “get” why there was so much discrimination against them. After all, they thought and felt just like me, I was a boy (if a rather odd one who didn’t understand other boys at all), girls were just like me. I didn’t see much of a difference between the sexes.

Came 2005 and one of the more unusual effects of 3BHSD (it can have a wide variety, and doesn’t usually cause this after birth, only before). My body started feminising, my endocrine system switched to a standard female mode. The psychological effects of such a hormonal switch, usually only found as the result of treatment for transsexuality or with some hormone-secreting tumours, are apparent first, as the brain re-wires, and the physical effects follow months later. Well, with normal metabolisms. Mine followed a week later. I lost 1/3 of my body mass inside 3 months, and if my endocrinologist hadn’t moved fast to stabilise things, would likely be dead.

I’d kept Gender Dysphoria at bay by complete denial. With my body changing (including my brain from the different hormonal mix), that was no longer on. Instead of this being some terrible nightmare, as it is for about one third of the people who go through it - and that’s more than you think - it was a “get out of Hell free” card.

An expert endo would still take a look at me and think “that’s odd.. differs significantly from a female norm” and wonder if CAH was involved. But the “minor oddities” would be in comparison to a normal female stereotype, not a male one. I look more female now than I looked male before.

And that is how “I’ve looked at Life from both sides now.”

Guys, I hate to tell you, but everything ptitle says is correct. Before 2005 I knew there was some discrimination, it was too obvious to ignore, and I did what I could to ameliorate that. But I was clueless as to the extent. It’s not just worse than you imagine, it’s worse than you can imagine.

She’s also picked up on something few women, and even fewer men, realise. That men are treated unfairly too, in ways that are blatant, and so ingrained in society that we miss them.

“Women and children first”. It’s men who go off to war. Men who do most of the dying in firefighting. Just as it’s women who are treated as cattle, and less than animals, in many societies.

References:

http://www.usrf.org/news/010308-guevedoces.html
“The Guevedoces of the Dominican Republic”.

2% of live births in parts of the Dominican Republic are XY people with 5ARD. They are born looking female (mostly), and masculinise to look male (mostly). That’s one of the rarer Intersex situations - others are far more common.

http://home.vicnet.net.au/~aissg/2010_FamCA_237.pdf
RE: SALLY (SPECIAL MEDICAL PROCEDURE) [2010] FamCA 237

A girl with 5ARD to whom the change is a nightmare, and requests permission for medical treatment that will sterilise her, but stop the change and reverse it to some extent.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/12/17/gaza.gender.id/

A CNN story (so full of over-simplifications and a few downright inaccuracies) about another cluster - this time 17BHSD not 5ARD, which has similar effects. A less complete FtoM change. It’s much like a mirror-image of my own MtoF change from 3BHSD.

All other references I’ve given are also available online, a simple Google on the title will find them.





By the way, on the subject of discrimination against women you might want to read my recent blog-post at http://peterwicks.wordpress.com/2012/02/19/why-empowering-women-is-essential-for-the-future-of-humanity/.

But the fact that there are other forms of discrimination is not a red herring. If it were not the case, then it would be right to keep banging on about this until finally something is done about it (more effective, that is, than what has already been done). But it is the case, as is the fact that the unfortunately reality of (sometimes arbitrary and man-made) discrimination is not the only or indeed the most urgent problem facing humanity today. I think empowering women is important mainly for the reason cited in my blog post, namely that we cannot afford to undervalue the immensely valuable resource at is female intelligence (however distinct or non-distinct, different or similar it may be compared to male intelligence), as we are currently doing. It seems to me that framing the problem in this way, rather than making it so much about social justice and personal frustration, helps us to gain perspective and is likely to galvanise more broad-based support.

But perhaps I’m wrong about this.





Margaret Atwood put it well (if characteristically pessimistically) when she said (this is from memory so not an exact quote): there is little point in fighting for equal space on the dance floor when soon we will be scrambling for the lifeboats.





@Peter Wicks

If you are right then the Wikipedia entry on biological gender is also out of date, because reading it a few weeks ago certainly reinforced my previous impression that significant ambiguities in biological gender are somewhat rarer than you are claiming. Of course ultimately this all depends on where you draw the line, i.e. what choices you make regarding classification, but on the essential parameters I still have the impression that nature has left us with a highly bimodal distribution.

Have a look on Wiki under “Intersex”.

The most restrictive definition, that of Leonard Sax, excludes men with XX chromosomes, women with XY chromosomes, all situations involving un-obvious problems such as sterility, and so on.

Someone who is just slightly more male than female wouldn’t count either, their sex has to absolutely “in the middle”. Even then, we’re talking tens of millions on the planet.

The most inclusive definition, meaning “any deviation from a standard male or female stereotype” puts it at 1 in 25. Most of those anomalies would require extensive lab tests to detect though, or can only be inferred and not directly observed and measured.

Faust-Sterling’s figure of 1.7% is probably best. That corresponds with differences visibly obvious, or detectable by tests used by fertility clinics or professional sports associations.

Even 24 out of 25 is “highly bimodal” though, let alone 59/60.

if you’re right then the evidence backing up your position needs to be brought out and become much more widely known than it currently is

We’re trying. Unfortunately there’s massive opposition from religious groups.

Example:

“Redwood Heights Elementary School, in Oakland, is in the hot-seat after the school decided to educate students about gender diversity.

On Monday and Tuesday, students of every grade were taught what the school called age-appropriate lessons about gender differences. Some lessons included all-girl geckos, a transgender clownfish, and boy snakes who act “girly” reports the San Francisco Chronicle.

“That’s a lot of variation in nature,” Gender Spectrum trainer, Joel Baum, told the students. “Evolution comes up with some pretty funny ways for animals to reproduce.”

Principal Sara Stone said the lesson on gender differences was part of a larger effort to control bullying in the school, something parents supported last year.

However, after the lessons began, several parents felt discussion in the classroom was too much.

The Pacific Justice Institute, a conservative organization, said teaching children that there may be more than two genders, “does not represent the values of the majority of families in Oakland,”

Teaching children the fact that Clownfish change sex over the course of their lifetimes is “against family values”.  Teaching them the fact that some humans do too is not just “anti-family’, it’s seen as “furthering the homosexual agenda” and is against their religious belief.





@Peter Wicks
“So I guess my question for Peg (and others) is: how, ideally, would you like these gender issues to be resolved, and on what kind of timescale?”
I think that the “event horizon” will be the availability of a fully functional technological device capable of sustaining the development of human life, from zygote to infant. That would completely change the role of sexes, and therefore our cultural structures connected with genders. It would be the ultimate liberation for women, since the connection between femininity and child rearing will be severed. Yet, it is nearly impossible to predict what will happen after that technological implementation. Maybe male gender will simply go extinct, while female phenotype progressively dismiss its characteristic sexual signals. Maybe males will reduce in number, but will boost to the extreme their prototypical sexual features, including aggressive behavior and recklessness - to compensate their progressively reduced sex appeal. Hard to say now. What I can believe - is that it will take another couple of centuries at least to have such a technology (and an adequate understanding of biological development) and quite a few generations to let evolution carve a new flesh to our species.





@Peter re “empowering women is important”

Empowering persons is important. Everyone, and everywhere. Since women are persons, of course empowering women is important.

But I remain against all forms of empowerment of one group at the detriment of other groups. Either all persons are considered equal and treated as such, or they are not.





Fascinating reading, especially Zoe’s last but one comment (which I hadn’t seen when I made my two further responses to Peg).

I take issue with a couple of points, though.

Firstly, re “It’s not just worse than you imagine, it’s worse than you can imagine”, my first (somewhat flippant) response is to say,  “Don’t underestimate my powers of imagination!” More seriously, I can absolutely believe that discrimination is every bit as subtle and pervasive as Peg says it is. Disempowerment of women IS a serious problem, which is why I disagree with Giulio with regard to affirmative action.

Secondly, re “She’s also picked up on something few women, and even fewer men, realise”, I think men are VERY well aware that we also get discriminated against, it’s a complaint I hear frequently (e.g. In the form of comments such as “the feminist door swings both ways”). On the other hand, I also think that discrimination against women is far more serious and pervasive. If I didn’t then I would join Giulio in opposing affirmative action and would be even more insistent that we not focus so exclusively on this specific form of discrimination, which is indeed one among many.

Regarding Andre’s response to my question: Andre doesn’t that all sound a bit dystopic? My question was how we would like these issues to be resolved, not how they will be resolved. Also, “a couple of centuries” seems very long. If civilisation survives that long at all (which I don’t by any means take for granted, hence my Margaret Atwood quote) then surely technology will have continued to accelerate to the extent that this will be achievable in decades, not centuries? It’s not that I’m advocating an exercise in unrealistic, starry-eyed daydreaming, but in general our concepts of what is “realistic”, especially in the medium to long term, tend to be both complacent (with regard to potential catastrophe) and defeatist (with regard to potential opportunities). That’s why I think it’s both essential and urgent to build consensus on what kind of futures we actually want.





@ Guilio *giggle* Hun, I’m not really interested in whether my appearance appeals to YOU. I’m not even concerned with appealing to others. I am concerned only with satisfying my OWN desires. I’ll be the first to admit that I’m over the top. I’m vain. I’m a tease. I’m a slut. And I’m a nympho. It’s all part and parcel of being an artist type. I have a pathological need to be the center of attention…  I’m just intelligent enough to realize it and not be TOO pathetic about my appeals for attention.

But to stay on topic. I don’t really see this “apartheid” as being fixable prior to morphological freedom, and a completely moot point afterwards. I also don’t see this as a “long term” situation, because there’s going to be a rather MASSIVE assault against this “status quo” in the very near future when VR becomes commonplace, and all those “G.I.R.L.s” (Guy in real life) on the net invade the everyday world in their female avatars. Considering how many of them I’ve run into, the shock of a few MILLION insta-girls coming out is going to go a LONG way towards eliminating the stereotypes that underlie this entire problem.

Consider that fatalistic if you want, but the way I see it is that revolutions come and go, evolution is forever.





@Valkyrie Ice

I want to be an “in your face female”, an unambiguous, gigantic breasted, hormonally overloading sextoy who’s very presence screams FUCK ME!!!!!!!!! Like Khannea, I want to leave a trail of rock hard cocks and wet panties behind me as I walk by.

That is almost the complete opposite of me. For one thing, I’d be scared witless to look like that. I’m a very mousey, introverted geek-girl, now well into middle-age.

. So trying to get me to use a “neutral” pronoun and denying my gender is pointless. I will never willingly chose to be genderless.

Yet on that I agree completely, and for me it was a genuine option. It wasn’t “me” though, even less so than being a sex goddess would be.

Not that the latter was ever an option - I knew that at age 10.

Here’s a picture of me.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_RX1kCTDHtt8/S0FijXClC5I/AAAAAAAAALo/wS1TkMS0xrA/s400/Pic_04_01_2020

Don’t worry about privacy concerns - I’m something of an activist (though that goes completely against my stay-at-home nature) and have appeared in some educational articles and even a TV show. No-one’s particularly interested, I don’t match preconceived stereotypes of what a “hermaphrodite freak” or “transsexual” should look like. Too humdrum.

On the other hand, I don’t look too bad for 52 (now 54) in that photo. I know, “Vanity, thy name is Woman”.





@Valkyrie re liking yourself - Good point, I just felt that I had to remind you that you should not assume that others like the same things that you like.

On a related note, a few years ago we expected virtual world to become commonplace and a routine communication layer like in Snow Crash (and I wasted a lot of time, energy and money to make it happen faster), but since then we have found out that virtual world are only a nice thing that most people can do without.

The lesson (and I paid a lot of money for this lesson) is that we like what we like and others like what they like.





@ Giulio   Of course not, if they did it would be such an incredibly BORING world.

No two people share all the same desires. No matter how similar in tastes two people might appear to be,  there will not merely be differences in how those desires are expressed, as well as different motivations for those desires.

The trick is to not examine the desires. Why I want to be a sex goddess is obvious. I’m a nymphomaniacal attention whore.  But looked at from a different level, a much different motivation appears. I seek to appear in a manner which I feel I would “Look Good” and “Appealing” to people who share similar opinions of what “looks good” and “appealing” to myself.  That motivation is not unique to the category of “succubi” but is close to a universal trait shared by the entire human species. The specific details are unique to an individual, the overarching motivation is nearly universal. Only the degree to which this motivation actually motivates an individual changes. You have a very low motivation to “look attractive”, I have a very high.  Both of us are outliers on the bell curve.

In the same vein, this is how I make my predictions. Not on the specific wishes and desires I have, but on the underlying base motives that I see as shared among a majority of the human race.  I see “Avatars” as becoming popular not because people want to look like succubi, or trolls, or blue spacemen. I see them as becoming popular because PEOPLE ARE VAIN, regardless of the specifics of their individual expressions of vanity. I see that vanity being tantalized and teased by VR, and being driven to a slobbering frenzy of desire for a “real” version of the “perfected self” by a large enough percentage of the population to drive medical research into finding methods to allow that vanity to run rampant, resulting in the rapid advancement of stem cell based cosmetic surgeries to allow people to become their “perfected selves.”

What that “perfected self” might be will never be the same for any two people, but the desire to BE your “perfect self” is damn near universal. You can’t predict what any given individual wants. You can predict that a very large group of people will desire the ability to become something other than what they are now to ensure that morphological freedom will become a reality.

And once it HAS, this entire debate is going to seem like an exercise in pointlessness.





@Valkyrie Ice

“And once it HAS, this entire debate is going to seem like an exercise in pointlessness.”

Indeed, but it will be an incorrect perception. While we may perceive a certain inevitability about this, we do also have choices to make, which will have a bearing on what kind of futures we end up with.

In fact, what I find interesting about your vision (and about h+ generally) is that it dares to be a utopic vision, and here I’m not using “utopic” in the derogatory sense of “unrealistic”, but precisely in the sense of it being am essentially positive vision. Not that everyone will see it as such - for many people it probably looks like a vision of hell - but for my part I seek entry that is attractive about it. And that’s important because if we want to steer routs elves towards the best possible futures then we need to agree on what they are, and clarify just how much of a choice we really have. If I really saw this as inevitable in the way you seem to then I would agree that there’s not much point in even talking about it, ,but this isn’t clear to me. Perhaps we really do have a choice?





(Note to self: start proofing entries before posting. Hope the above is intelligible despite all the typos and autocorrects!)





Valkyrie Ice:

I seek to appear in a manner which I feel I would “Look Good” and “Appealing” to people who share similar opinions of what “looks good” and “appealing” to myself. That motivation is not unique to the category of “succubi” but is close to a universal trait shared by the entire human species. The specific details are unique to an individual, the overarching motivation is nearly universal.

I’d never thought of it like that, but I feel you must be right.

What’s the type of guy I’m attracted to? The type who wants me for my mind, my intellect, not my body - which is why I’d want him too.

While I wouldn’t complain if he *looked* like Brad Pitt, if he had Brad’s personality… ewwwwww. Clive James on the other hand… he has something of a reputation, and I can see why.

If I was into girls, I’d find someone who is so insightful (and probably talented in an artistic way) as yourself attractive too, at least, intellectually. The evidence is that you have a greater understanding of the human condition than I do. But now we’re getting outside my comfort-zone, and probably yours too.





*giggle* hun, I’m a mostly female oriented bi-sexual. You’re just starting to enter *my* comfort zone.

My insights into humanity come from 20+ years of observing it in it’s uninhibited state, dead drunk in a bar with hormones on overload. It makes it quite clear what behaviors are inherent, and which ones are learned.





Peter, re “I think men are VERY well aware that we also get discriminated against, it’s a complaint I hear frequently (e.g. In the form of comments such as “the feminist door swings both ways”)...” we weren’t talking about (or at least I wasn’t talking about) the kind of reverse discrimination that results from quotas and affirmative action programs.

We were talking about the way gender roles hurts men as well (as women).  The way you’re taught to see everything as a competition (as Cassandra points out, though perhaps on the other thread), the way you’re force fed the hero myth so you gladly go fight other people’s wars then come back broken and suicidal, the way you’re taught to see cars as penis extensions so you drive so recklessly you kill yourself (and others), the way you have children b/c that’s what real men do, the more the better, especially if they’re sons, little ego extenders, even though you have no interest whatsoever in taking care of them 24/7…

Men are, I’d say, about 50 years behind women in understanding this.  I don’t see men resisting, standing beside Stoltenberg, refusing to be a man.  Not in the numbers and force with which women have resisted their damaging gender roles.  Where are the men wearing yellow and orange and pink?  a trivial but perhaps symbolic example.  Where are the men becoming nursery school teachers b/c they realize they truly like little children?  Where are the men saying to each other, stop that!  You’re hurting yourself, you’re being a sucker, a fool, an idiot to believe [fill in the blank with any macho crap]?





Peg, The thing that annoys me about this type of discourse is that having correctly identified structural discrimination against women as a problem, including the tendency of society to lump women together and put them in a domestic, child-rearing role as if that was ever likely to satisfy all of you, you then start doing the same thing with men. You speak out against competition, and then come out with things like “men are 50 years behind women”. How is that not competitive?

I was not taught to see everything as a competition. That’s just not how I was brought up. Sorry of that complicates your worldview. I wasn’t force-fed any kind of hero myth, except perhaps the Christian one, and fortunately I had something of an arch-sceptic for a father and a sufficiently science-based and secular upbringing for me to be able to emancipate myself from it, after a while. I have very little interest in cars, except as a means of getting from A to B, and if in my youth I was somewhat more reckless a driver than most women (but probably less than most men), why are you so sure that this was due to my upbringing and not genetic causes? And children? I’m not sure I know ANY men who particularly wanted large families. If anything it tends to be the other way round.

None of this is to say that there is no truth in what you write. Given that it’s women, rather than men, that got the rough end of the gender divide in patriarchal society, it’s hardly surprising that men tend to be more defensive of it, and therefore less aware of the problems inherent in it. So indeed, most of us (currently) have little motivation to wear yellow and orange and pink. And we’re probably scared of becoming nursery school teachers because people will think we’re pedophiles.

By contrast, if you haven’t noticed men ostentatiously and conscientiously opting out of “that macho crap” then you just haven’t been paying attention.





@ptittle “Let people use any cultural code they want, as long as it does not involve coercion and violence.” but it DOES involve coercion and violence. I fail to see why you don’t see it. (and that’s what i’m finding so frustrating - it’s been written about for decades…do you deny ALL feminist literature/research?)

Look, here I have to make clear one point, so we can understand each other. When I speak about coercion and violence - I refer to coercion and violence. Not to “subtle forms” of coercion and violence. The examples you took from the movies, and from your experience, represents annoying cultural schemes, I agree with you. But this is all they are. And I do not think that vociferous minorities, or quiet majorities have the political right to change the life of anyone, just because they managed to express enough political power to bend others’ lives to please their personal, particular interests. You know, I find many things people do or say quite annoying. Those around me are not different, I suppose. I cannot even see certain individuals, they are too unbearable for me. I guess, on the other hand, I also do upset many people, with me mannerisms, with my verbal expressions, or my very physical presence.

So, the point is - when am I allowed to change the rest of the world to match my particular preferences? My answer is simple - when external agents are going to concretely hurt my individual body, or my social body (i.e. my reputation). I am talking about physical damages, batteries, threats, deliberate publicity of informations that damage my social image. If someone does not think I am a good professional because of my gender, my ethical background - what can I do? What should I do? On which grounds should I come to that ignorant person a change his/her undeveloped mind?

This is the problem with feminism, and with all philosophical positions backing up a particular political agenda. It wants to change ALSO peaceful human interactions, only to maximize the benefits for a specific group (in that case, women), and match the arbitrary preferences of its members. This has nothing to do with ethics. It has more to do with the expression of political influence.





“You speak out against competition, and then come out with things like “men are 50 years behind women”. How is that not competitive?”

I rest my case.
(It’s merely a comparison, Peter, not a description of a competition.)
(And no, not all comparisons are competitions.)

(And I didn’t “speak out against competition” - what a paper tiger!  I pointed out that the relentless competitive mode men are conditioned to have can be damaging - heart attack stats etc…)





Peg, I think one would have to be the Buddha herself not to a statement like “men are 50 years behind women” as competitive.

But whatever. Looking back over the various threads I don’t think there’s actually a huge amount we disagree about.

I still question the wisdom of emphasising the (still relatively small in my view) ambiguity in biological gender as a basis for advocating desegregation, any more than ambiguities in race were ever the best argument (or in any way relevant, really) for desegregating race. And I find it difficult to be optimistic about getting a gender-neutral pronoun to catch on, fun though it has been to explore the possibilities (I’m inclined to agree with Valkyrie Oce on that one).

But I think we both agree that gender-based discrimination is a serious problem, and that it’s worth creatively exploring ways to do something about it.

I’ll only insist further on the point about other forms of discrimination not being a red herring. I think this is important. As I point out above, there are excellent reasons to empower women (e.g. via affirmative action - in the short term surely more effective than trying to convince people to stop identifying each other as male and female), as well as of course continuing to decouple biological gender as far as possible from fixed societal roles. But to the extent that gender-based discrimination is one form of discrimination among many, there is a concomitant risk of over-emphasising it. And that matters, in my view.





“men are 50 years behind women”

The above is an understatement.
In fact, the main characteristic distinguishing men from women is male willingness to be violent in pursuit of their goals, and it might be 50 years before such changes; we might be having these same discussions several decades from now—roll that one over in your minds.
I don’t care so much having heard the same thing since the early ‘70s; however do mind having heard the same thing for the 23 years since I was made aware of transhumanism. Frankly, it feels like two decades of drift since the Cold War ended.





Martine I agree with all you are saying.

To me ending the gender separation will end the discrimination in all areas like, race, color, cultures, nationalities, economics, size, shape, looks etc..

I do not believe merging the Genders is as difficult as it appears.
A) No one has tried B) It is this Male need to hold on to TURF that causes much of separation and opposition that keeps the gender structure in place. 

This TURF situation is very present in Gay Man as well as hetro men.. It is a bio instinctual and learned behavior that is on the lower scale of evolution but has persisted due to the way society is set up to pit each other against one another ( competition ) in order to make $$.  It is all now reaching a breaking point as it is so passe and useless to move forward.. It hinders and stops progression and growth . Why we have stayed stagnant.

This is Why I am focusing on evolving the Male to accept and love self and not feel so threatened… The Key is having Men embrace their sensitive female parts equal to their male parts as you have talked about saying Woman wear Men type of clothing.. jeans tshirts etc… This is not big deal ! So why would it be a big deal for men to wear soft flowing pants and fun shirt !

Personally I aiming to focus on the Male Penis as a body part of great beauty.. It has gotten a very bad rap !! Like being ignored !! Yet to each man it is their best friend !! It is a huge part of the Male self identity and feelings etc… Female Boobs and Butt are everywhere !! But if focus on the Male Penis as body part of beauty then that is determined to be the Gay World !! Which is a JOKE as I am a heterosexual female and nothing Gay about my appreciating and seeing the BEAUTY in a man’s Penis !! Has nothing to do with ” SEX” etc It is just part of the anatomy and equal to all part of the body etc…

The Caveman bio operation is extinct today but too many men even if educated have not personally evolved to feel Secure with LOVING their female soft natures of themselves equal to their natural physical Male instinct etc and Merging them as one Whole Person. All the feelings are confusing etc… and Males need to start expressing selves from a deep space.  No Shame.. only humility of being a Person.. Not a Man nor a Woman.. Just a Person .

The Woman’s movement allowed the female to find herself.
Now it is the males turn. It has not been acceptable in society for the Males to say I am hurt. I am lonely. I am aching etc.  Why I am focused on creating products that kind of catch them off guard and create new Images to aspire to…  It is Not about being Gay or straight etc.. It is about Loving oneself and stop fighting !!

The only enemy one has is themselves.. No one outside of selves is the problem. The problems are within oneself, Ones attitude, ones perceptions, ones feelings, ones thinking.. It You against You no one else…  Males need to surrender to this CORE that is them.. Within the complexity of Being Human each male and female has many opposite sex characteristics that are equal in the person ! For happiness each person has to MERGE these forces within the selves to a what is a comfortable completion for selves. 

This type of education all has a nice vehicle now due to the 2 way media and social networks allowing ” Emergence” to start running the show, life and reality etc… The transparency is arriving in mega watts in every part of life !! No longer can people avoid the truth and stay in denial pretending their way through life…

How quickly information goes viral in real time without anyone able to control it is the internal private voice of each individual no matter what gender having tremendous Power ! It is no longer he said or she said.. It is what is being said that can be verified !

This Emergence structure of life requires one to be Awake and congruent with their Selves and Life in Real Time. It is bringing about the “Urge to Merge” a Magnetic Attraction that is opposite of the fight or flight response that has been running our Planet the last 150 yrs if not for all time ! It is this fight/flight response that created all the walls of separation due to fear leading.

Many groups like Mankind project are arriving each day.Warren Farrell phd Author of
“Woman Cannot Hear What Men Don’t Say ” has a Whole well developed plan he has submitted to Whitehouse for actualization as he sees the males needing attention and deep expression reaching epidemic proportions as a PHd in the subject for 30 yrs.. Gender based anger is destroying quality of Life for everyone and the Gender distinction has to be eliminated.

Dr. Warren Farrell and the Commission to Create a White House Council on Boys and Men
http://www.warrenfarrell.name/

http://mankindproject.org/

The ManKind Project flies in the face of rigid stereotypes about the “Sensitive New Age Man” AND the “Macho Man”. We ask men to go right up to the edge - and beyond it - in a culture that seems to be comfortable with mediocrity and passivity from men. We ask men to stop living a vicarious adventure through their TV’s and step into a real time adventure to win back their passion for life. We ask men to confront the real problems in their lives and to get 100% honest about who they are. Some men have a really hard time doing that. Many of us did too, but we took the risk anyway.





Yes, Cassandra, and I would add, again, Stoltenberg (I like his book much better than Farrell’s).

But I think the men have to do it themselves.  Part of being a ‘man’ is _not_ conceding to a woman, not listening to her, not saying yes, you’re right.  So I think we can say this all we want, but it’s not going to do much good until it comes from them.  In fact, the more we say it, the more they’ll resist it.





“The only enemy one has is themselves.. No one outside of selves is the problem. The problems are within oneself, Ones attitude, ones perceptions, ones feelings, ones thinking..”

There are anomalies, casrose. Friends who give bad advice are frenemies.
The guy (we know a guy was involved) who Mike Treder met up with in Detroit…





@Peg ~ I am just giving my viewpoints here ~ I am not trying to convince anyone of anything etc… What I am doing to create evolution and change though for the Males is coming through a MAN not me… I will be no where and nothing.  Invisible.

I am done with trying to get anywhere as a female… Too much attitude and backlash and so much DRAMA !! I have no interest nor time for people’s insecurities… I have found having a MAN be me in the real world works far better to get the way I see things to happen !

Luckily I met a Man who believes in me and agrees and is willing to start moving things into action…  I am just the little tinkerer in the back room.. A nobody and that is FINE with ME !!

As I said in another post I thought of working to create a Male identity and move things forward that way… Except I did not like at all being known as a Man even if it was by false image and name… I like who I am.. It is Not my problem if others form attitudes due to what I look or act like as a warm loving female.

The one thing I will not do anymore is put up with the slander and arguments that have zero baring on anything other then this one upmanship the Males seem to need to do to me…  I am done with it…. Finding a Man to move my agenda forward is a new lease on life !!!  Everyone will think he cool ! He is savy enough to pull it off.
Where as I would only get mud in face… and NO You CANNOT do That !!

No More TWISTING of everything I want to do to fit into their perspective and understanding !! Why we females are still Not equal and our understanding not running anything..  Females are round peg being constantly forced into square holes.. WE NEED a whole New merger and counter productive engagement then this.





First step might be civilization- we do not live in a civilization as of yet; we live in a state of controlled barbarism. One big factor is men are willing and able to be violent in pursuit of their goals—this alone (and naturally there are other factors) means women cannot pull themselves out as of yet from under mens’ thumbs.
However such is only to be pessimistic about the timeframe, not the frame smile





“I am done with trying to get anywhere as a female… Too much attitude and backlash” - I definitely ‘hear’ you there!

“I have found having a MAN be me in the real world works far better to get the way I see things to happen!  Luckily I met a Man who believes in me and agrees and is willing to start moving things into action…”  I don’t follow.  Explain a bit more?





Intomorrow Well I guess you know more about Mike Treder situation then I am aware of !

I have been stalked and attacked by crazed men I am related to for the past 2 yrs… I do not see them as my enemy at all…
They see me as their enemy. Why they trying to hurt and destroy. This is the reality. Their behaviors show they have a problem with me but their wacko actions show the real problem is with themselves…

To me friends who give bad advice are Not friends !! Boundaries is VIP today… Much Caution and sense of self needs to be ones grounding force…  I for sure did not get the impression Mike Treder was easily influenced by anyone. He seems very deep.

If I were attacked on the street that is Not my enemy..
That is a person who sees himself as his own enemy needing a outlet for the rage and self hate… 

I am sorry I am so existentialist but dealing with the Domestic Violence I have, It is VIP to know I am a target not a Victim. It is not my stuff.. It is their stuff.  I am not a survivor. I am working on being the Victor ! How I am seeing Mike Treder too in what ever he dealing with or dealt with !





@ Peg a Real Man.. Living breathing straight He-Man type that is a evolved soul.. Has lived off grid for a long time .. Now willing to get back and Play the Game for concrete goals. He feels the same way I do about this Gender Role causing us not to evolve as Humans.

It is all only a Game and he is good at it. This is what I miss as a female. I can not play the Game the Males see life and moving business forward as… I do not have these social graces of BS !





Ah.  Well, that’s sad.  I mean, you seem happy about it, so I’m happy you’re happy.  But it’s sad that women have to interact with the world through a man in order to ‘get things done’.





“Intomorrow Well I guess you know more about Mike Treder situation then I am aware of!”

Mike didn’t meet up with Little Red Riding Hood, we know that- it is what is meant by ‘controlled barbarism’.
The one hope is that he went across the bridge to Canada on a lark, which is something quite possible- he might be out of touch because he lost his cellphone or is in an area where the distance/terrain might break up the signal.

 





@Peg ~ Yes I am very happy about it !  I am in a relationship with the Man and it is added dynamic to Our World/Life that is Fun !

The Yin Yang bouncing off each other.. Again we are not tied into roles.. Roles/Genders is what we want to eliminate as see the damage it is creating to so many with confusion on who they are etc..  Media has made everyone neurotic and boring !

We have Merged. We both have strong male/female selves that arise as needed in this Journey… It is a Team effort of equals.
We are Not separate People with walls… It is all very integrated as again I am not a threat to him at all.

He is my biggest fan and I his. We can appreciate what we each bring to the table as it is not built on expectations etc especially in the role area…  We both have spent extensive time alone in nature which might be why we have no fear of each other !

If I had to hire a man to do this.. No it would not work at all.
Trust is a big issue if there is not the emotional commitment to working together as a team for shared objectives in a relationship.  At this stage of my Life.. I am tired.. I just want to get the JOB done… Move on !! Bigger and Better things await .
This is just a means to a end !! I am not giving anything up but rather expanding my world and life..





“But I think the men have to do it themselves. Part of being a ‘man’ is _not_ conceding to a woman, not listening to her, not saying yes, you’re right. So I think we can say this all we want, but it’s not going to do much good until it comes from them. In fact, the more we say it, the more they’ll resist it.”

Peg I really don’t want to piss you off again, but this has ‘limiting belief’ written all over it.

I’m not even sure what the ‘it’ is you’re saying men “have to do”, I’ve only just seen this new flourishing of comments on this thread and your comment quoted above is what got up and hit me. But if you insist on portraying “men” - which most people understand as people such as myself with penises and XY chromosome pairs - as helpless imbeciles who are so in thrall to our own limiting beliefs that we are unable ever to concede to a woman, listen to her, and admit, from time to time, that she is right (and, more painfully, that we were wrong), then you will continue to have difficulties getting your message across as effectively as you otherwise might.

Just saying.





I agree with Peter wicks on this one.  Your argument (and Peg’s in my opinion) sounds a lot like a sweeping generalization.





It seems we are coming back to where I started when I responded to Peter Wicks article about Genders that was in response to Peg Tittles’ article which was in response to this thread we now on of Martine’s !!

No more circles !! Spirals are positive but circles is cat catching it’s tail of nowhere. We are right back at the Us Vs Them.. Attacks !
No one is going to convince or change anyone but we can look for solutions to the problem in dialogue rather then pitting one against another etc..

A good starting point is I Love this quote Peter that you posted
As Henry Ford said: “if I’d asked the users what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse”.

As a inventor it is my favorite ! For sure people are stuck in the man made linear thinking operational mode of life.. Are lazy and comfortable in not thinking just drifting through life feeding their needs with all the gluttony available… I first saw this quote at the History Smithsonian in DC about Ford when I took my 15 yr old son on educational Tour of Washington for a week Summer of 2005 ~ All OUr problems in evolving this world come down to this human made linear silo thinking ~ Nature does not work like this.

My son was going to High School in CA.. I figured he would never be back on East Coast again. I wanted him to know when he saw Whitehouse, Capitol etc on TV what it was in reality.. Very small world of hypocrites ! Shakespeare Museum is behind the USA Capitol and is where Our Own Tour began ! Life is all stage etc…

I was shocked when he told me in CA the only place he wanted to go to college was in Washington DC to major in International affairs !! What ? He is own Person so I supported him on his choice and let go .

Message I learned from this is be careful what you teach your children ! A history lesson became a Life !! as he has been since 2008 very embedded in Washington DC which is my great erre due to his University GWU discriminating behavior towards me. They are in the 14th century and I believe nothing more then the industrial military school which is the base of the problems I have encountered with them. They attacked me.. I was minding my own business.. But again GWU attitude comes down to Turf and not wanting to be exposed for the little male world of superiority they created that has been so detrimental to the student life there.

This all has led me to take up the cause of doing away with the gender identity as to me gender “us vs them” is the emotional hot bed carrying lifetime of generational attitudes is the core of all discrimination that is destroying the USA.

Henry Ford’s quote explains why we are going in circle..
Everyone has their ” Turf” ~ The lens they see reality through.
As many have posted nostalgia plays a important role of this attachment for people to hang on to something that is only a ideology of wanting denial when the dust has cleared etc..

No bigger and better place for this then what is a man and what is woman etc.. Have to , suppose to… My grandmother, my mother, my grandfather, my father and the biggy Media fantasy as to the Role people are attached to when it comes to sexes..

This to me is all emotional low on scale of evolution nonsense !!
We are born anew in a Universe to be who we are suppose to be… Not go backwards working towards a belief, a lifestyle that was so in the PAST !! Hang on to the Art, Architecture etc and dignitygracewithbeauty of the times but as Species we need to move forward and evolve. Not be trapped by ideologies.

For sure the experience I have had by being suckered into GWU ancient inefficient operation that is damaging has brought me to many conclusions that has ZERO to do with generalizations.
I only wish it was that simple !! But there are real actions that can be taken logically to stop this madness in our Nation’s Capitol that keeps all in the state of constant spin only to hold on to some imaginary TURF and pit Us Vs Them…

The Gender identity to me is the doable bowling ball to eliminate many PIN HEADS of ignorance keeping USA stuck and in turn the rest of the World…





@casrose I’m intrigued to know more about your experience with GWU, not because I have any links with them or particular intention to develop such, but because it seems to have played quite an important role in shaping your views on this. Personal stories are so often the richest source of insights.

I like your distinction between spirals and circles, but spirals can sometimes look like circles. Indeed we’ve been going round and round, but in the mean time I think we’re making progress. Onward and upward!

Maybe to increase the ration of progress to circularity it would be good to clarify just who is advocating what. You, Martine and Peg want to get rid of the apartheid of sex, and I never had much of a problem with that, it was more the analysis on which they were building their case that I had problems with on this thread. As for my own article, I wasn’t really advocating anything so much as raising a question: is gender about to disappear?

Based on the various comments (and further reflection) I’m pretty (but not 100%) sure that gender WILL disappear eventually, unless there is some kind of civilisational collapse that sends us all back to the stone age. As Kevin Kelly would put it, it’s what technology wants. But as he also says, in the mean time we have choices to make, and the urgency with which you, Martine and Peg want to abolish gender, as a means to remove what for you is a fundamental source of discrimination, is something that I think we can all learn from.

I guess my remaining question is: how important is it that we all share this sense of urgency, or even necessarily agree that this is something that is desirable?

This is also related to the discussion Giulio and I are having on Peg’s latest article. What impact do we believe we are having, or believe we could have, or want to have, when we post articles and comments here? It’s good to think about these things from time to time (to avoid spirals collapsing back into circles).





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